The big society

[newwave]

Has anyone heard Dave mention the big society or we are all in this together lately? Then again he may have just influenced society to come together albeit they appear to be protesting against his policies and his rich "mates" greed.

One worry I have is that next summer the more "radical protesters" will be burning and looting shops in a High Street near you after all what need do you have to hold back if you are young with no future you have very little to lose. If I could I would suggest to them that if they must indulge in looting shops and burning homes then maybe Knightsbridge, Belgravia and Mayfair should be their destination of choice. Unlike Tottenham I doubt that the Police would sit back and let the rich burn. Better still give them a future, hope and jobs, then again we have a Tory government so that is unlikely as creating unemployment and hardship for those at the bottom is hardwired into their DNA.

How do you know no-one was sacked or made redundant. That local taxi firm might be laying people off even now. I'm not arguing against volunteering, quite the reverse. But to single out volunteer librarians with foul language the way you have been doing is appalling.

It is not just volunteer librarians it is anyone who does a job that someone was paid for and has been laid off. what next? hospital cleaners? how about classroom assistants?.

How about if the union was taking industrial action to stop the person(s) job(s) being lost would you step into the job then or would you wait till later to do someones paid job for nothing.

Rabbit, no I don?t think the state should pay for the Scouts/Guides or my Sons football team for that matter, there is only so much the state can do

newwave So if you agree with Cameron that there's only so much the state can do, I think the key point is really that our current Government draws the line in a different place to you.

newwave So if you agree with Cameron that there's only so much the state can do, I think the key point is really that our current Government draws the line in a different place to you.

Very true, the Tories pander to the bankers, the rich and powerful, no problem with looking after them, plenty of cash for bankers bonuses.

I know you're changing the subject because you've realised you're on thin ice but 'the Tories' aren't providing the cash for bankers' bonuses out of public finances are they?

Ah but Cogito, you can't introduce facts and logic to spittle frothing about The Evil Tories, doncha know!

I realise that but... call me a soppy old romantic... I feel I should try.

I know you're changing the subject because you've realised you're on thin ice but 'the Tories' aren't providing the cash for bankers' bonuses out of public finances are they?

That was in answer to a specific point by another poster and I am not changing the subject. As for bankers bonuses if the public had not bailed them out then there would be far less money for bonuses so yes "we" are paying (at least in part) for their bonuses.

And you have not responded to:

It is not just volunteer librarians it is anyone who does a job that someone was paid for and has been laid off. What next? Hospital cleaners? How about classroom assistants?

Or

How about if the union was taking industrial action to stop the person(s) job(s) being lost would you step into the job then or would you wait till later to do someone?s paid job for nothing.

Well, to be honest, I couldn't care less if you think I'm a scab. Our library is safe but it is more important to me that it is kept open - by volunteers if necessary - and people can use it, than a political point is scored.

You may feel differently, as is your prerogative.

Lookattheears

Did you wait until whoever was laid off the leave the building or did you face up to the person who you were replacing.

newwave, could I humbly suggest that 'scabs' as you call them are not the problem; you may not think they're the solution to funding cuts but that doesn't make them the source of the cuts. Akin to the much-in-the-news-recently discussions of unpaid interns, again the fault lies not with the unpaid interns but with the greedy companies using them as replacement for paid staff.

newwave, read my post. Our libraries are safe, no volunteers. Of course I'd look them in the eye, I see our library workers every week .

May I also politely suggest that if labour hadn't spent the last thirteen years throwing obscene amounts of money at every thing that moved or wanted it, there wouldn't be the need for cuts. Just a thought....

newwave - if in 10 years time all those libraries are still closed, will you volunteer to start one up to help the local community that is now losing out big-time, in the same way you help out the Scouts? Because by then you won't be replacing someone who's just been made redundant, you'll be starting a service up from scratch.

I guess you think anyone working anywhere that has recently suffered redundancies is a scab, too, on the basis they are now doing more work than they used to before for no extra pay, given that they will be taking up some of the slack. And maybe you don't mind about the local builder or carpenter who went bust because everyone started dealing with their own shed and building work, but I suspect he or she finds it pretty galling to see their business go down the tubes, just as librarians must find it galling to watch their libraries disappear either into the ether, or into the hands of volunteers who would rather spend their time doing something else, anyway.

cutting funding at county council and local council level so drastically that services will close

then saying that volunteers can step in - with no training, no funding and no support

is saving money. not the big society.

becuase a library in a non MC area is less likely to be staffed by a volunteer and so will close.

jolly well done you green welly wearing army stepping in and giving back to the community. the @MC community.

the poorer areas will suffer.

newwave is right. If you want to spend your time and energy keeping services going, join your local anti-cuts group.coalitionofresistance.co.uk anticutsprotests.co.uk falseeconomy.com

It is actually illegal to replace paid staff with volunteers. What they do is ensure there is a massive great 'public consultation' ergo - the libraries situation, so everyone can complain and protest abou the shutting of them etc, then, when paid staff have been made recundant, the volunteers who are already there will simply continue volunteering so there is no hint of them 'taking' paid staffs work.

custardo I don't quite get your point.
Why would libraries in non MC areas be less likely to have volunteers?

Oh and volunteers are offered training and support in the same way an employee would be - just in a way that in no way could be construed as a contract - they are given (or should be in the best cases), to the same policies and procedures as paid staff.

It is Glos Disputandum - no direct links to explain what is going on but see here www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/libraries/index.cfm?articleid=96657

and here www.thisisgloucestershire.co.uk/Library-volunteers-plea-Minchinhampton/story-13564755-detail/story.html

While I was in the library the other day, 2 people came in offering to volunteer which is how I came to hear about it.

I believe there has already been some action towards taking Glos CC to court over plans to close most of their libraries.

I also think this is secondary to the major issue of where the cuts have fallen as that is what we should be collectively really about IMO..

Custardo - yes, of course closing libraries is all about saving money - even Big Society afficionados know that. I don't see how allowing them to close down helps anyone, though - particularly if the argument for allowing that to happen is that it's not fair that it's only MC communities that can muster anyone up to fight against it or, when the worst comes to the worst, volunteer to keep it open somehow themselves. Or do you think MC communities are happily accepting library closures because they all actually want to volunteer in them??!!!!!!

And if poorer communities can't fight for their local library, maybe that's because they don't use it. If they do use it, then I fail to see how they are incapable of fighting for it to stay open. Or do you actually want the Green Welly brigade to march in and interfere with other peoples' communities to keep their libraries open for them, because they're incapable of doing it themselves???

Yes, please address that Custardo. Why are poorer communities incapable of volunteering?

I agree with Custardo. It is even more important to keep libraries open in poor communities for the benefir of those people that do make use of them. The middle classes are morer likely to be able to buy books than the poor if push comes to shove. It doesn't matter if only a minority of poor people use libraries; they are the ones that need and deserve help.

We shouldn't need any "Green Welly" brigade to do anything. The government should be supplying these services out of our taxes.

'Why are poorer communities incapable of volunteering?'

Poorer communities are more likely to be struggling to keep their head above water. Middle classes are more likely to have more time available to volunteer.

Won't many of those who are poorer be out of work? So not only would they have time but volunteering is a fabulous skill and experience to have on a CV.