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Original poster

Occupy London

288 replies

glasnost · 07/10/2011 12:38

p.twimg.com/AbGk1-FCQAAjoi7.png

Well, why not MNers?

What have your kids got to lose? In NY there are alot of families with children protesting and occupying that doesn't get mentioned in the mainstream press.

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hardboiledpossum · 19/10/2011 18:52

Disputandum I didn't watch it but I think the point is that they are all dissatisfied with the current system and the unfairness in how the wealth is distributed. They haven't agreed on what they would like to change and how but they are trying to be part of the solution. They hold two meetings a day to discuss these things and are working on the answers! Hopefully they will get there but it is a slow process especially when they are trying to agree on things democratically.

Disputandum · 19/10/2011 20:36

Thanks hardboiledpossum. I think you're right actually, but the lack of direction or a clear consensus doesn't inspire confidence. If they can't agree on important stuff like this, how are they going to scale up their ideology to national or global level (again I assume that's what the aim is)?

There's also been grumbling about media misrepresentation, but here they had a golden opportunity to impress and convince, and failed to do so IMO.

Disputandum · 19/10/2011 20:38

So, it's not enough just to moan about what's wrong without offering some viable alternatives (I think anyway).

claig · 19/10/2011 22:31

Intersting interview with one of the Tea Party's founders, who says Occupy Wall Street is doing the right thing by not formalising demands. Interesting video interview as well.

rt.com/usa/news/tea-occupy-denninger-wall-819/

Disputandum · 20/10/2011 06:41

It seems that the protest is growing, media reporting this morning that there are now 180 tents.

St Paul's now regretting their decision to ask police to allow the protestors to settle though...they have had to close the profitable parts of the cathedral (gift shop, cafe) and the camp is now threatening the main entrance, so they have asked them to move on.

niceguy2 · 20/10/2011 08:56

I've not read all 9 pages but to me the fundamental problem with these "Occupy xxx" protests are that they all want change....but noone knows what.

What is the end-game here? In Cairo the protester's were all united in one single aim. The removal of the President. That unified all of them.

Right now we just have a bunch of well meaning people who want "change" but have no idea what it is. What's considered a victory? A new tax on banks, a stop of budget cuts?

I suspect all that will happen is over the next couple of weeks, the press will get bored, the weather will get wetter & colder and everyone will slowly get bored and shuffle off home.

hardboiledpossum · 20/10/2011 09:19

Disputandum I agree. I'm going to go along to one of their meetings and suggest that they agree on a few clear objectives!

aliceliddell · 20/10/2011 19:36

I think they have drawn up some key points; I'll try and find a link.

niceguy2 · 20/10/2011 21:17

OK so they are basically:

Demands / Objectives

1. The current system is unsustainable. It is undemocratic and unjust. We need alternatives; this is where we work towards them.

Fair enough...a good start and I agree. We do need alternatives. The million dollar question is what is a suitable alternative? Just what do you expect Obama, Sarkozy, Merkel & Cameron to do exactly???

2. We are of all ethnicities, backgrounds, genders, generations, sexualities / disabilities and faiths. We stand together with occupations all over the world.

Great, another nice sounding statement. Who can disagree with that one. It's not a demand as such, nor an objective. Just a statement of fact.

3. We refuse to pay for the banks? crisis.

Fair enough. Who will then? Again, what is their objective? To be exempted from their share of the banking bailout? Or to demand that all govts withdraw their support and let them take their chances on the open economy like every other business?

4. We do not accept the cuts as either necessary or inevitable. We demand an end to global tax injustice and our democracy representing corporations instead of the people.
Really? You don't accept it? You have to be an idiot then. Expenditure > income = debt. To repay debt you have to cut spending. It really is THAT simple. Arguing that cuts are not necessary is simply stupid and undermines their whole logic. It's better to argue they want tax reforms such as increased corporation tax and lower income tax.

5. We want regulators to be genuinely independent of the industries they regulate.
Fair enough, me too.

6. We support the strike on the 30th November and the student action on the 9thNovember, and actions to defend our health services, welfare, education and employment, and to stop wars and arms dealing.
OK....a specific one. I like it, even if personally I think its a bit misguided. But at last, something specific.

7. We want structural change towards authentic global equality. The world?s resources must go towards caring for people and the planet, not the military, corporate profits or the rich.

What change!?!?! You want change but what change ffs. I want to go to the moon but it doesn't mean if I camp out in London for a year it will make it happen!

8. We stand in solidarity with the global oppressed and we call for an end to the actions of our government and others in causing this oppression.

Great, another statement rather than a demand or objective.

Original poster
glasnost · 21/10/2011 11:59

aliceliddell are you there? Have got a bit of a bone to pick with you. You told me to have look at the Dale Farm threads for evidence of the depressing rightwing mindset. Well, I did and now feel a tad sullied. Do the various DMs, Express, Murdoch press really manage to deroem public opinion in that way? It's all very tedious to haveto look into the void in that way.

Still back to positive things! The Occupation's going swimmingly.

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/20/occupy-london-st-pauls-christianity

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/20/occupy-london-st-pauls-protesters

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Original poster
glasnost · 21/10/2011 11:59

DEFORM public opinion, even.

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Disputandum · 21/10/2011 15:37

My favourite protester interview of the day : 'I don't like Starbucks because they are part of the problem, but they let me charge my mobile phone and use the loo.' Brilliant. Down with the corporate overlords, unless they've got something I want.

Disputandum · 21/10/2011 15:41

Just read that St Paul's is closing indefinitely, for the first time since WW2, and has asked the camp to move on.

Disputandum · 21/10/2011 15:43

"I?d like to see a hybrid of capitalism and communism with everyone getting the same wage?.

God, can't they stop the stupid ones talking to cameras?

Original poster
glasnost · 21/10/2011 15:45

Who the hell said that?

Was probably an actor. (She hopes).

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claig · 21/10/2011 16:06

I think it might have been a New Labour spokesperson.

claig · 21/10/2011 16:12

Ordinary people sometimes say stupid things. But that doesn't matter. Ordinary people don't have all the answers. But they can still voice their discontent with the current state of affairs. I prefer to hear ordinary people's views than apparatchiks who mouth the approved platitudes of "we need another carbon tax" and we are running out of time "to save the planet". Let the people speak, and make sure they are not high-jacked by the official 'carbon footprint' tax brigade, who are His Master's Voice rather than the people's voice.

Original poster
glasnost · 21/10/2011 16:23

I bloody hate emoticons but I must use one for your New Labour spokesman quip, claig. Smile Smile and, indeed, Smile. I draw the line at a Grin though.

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Original poster
glasnost · 21/10/2011 16:25

Back to Occupation. They're in the process of negotiating with the Church to see whether they can stay.

How much land does the Church own in the UK? And the Crown?

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claig · 21/10/2011 16:25

"I?d like to see a hybrid of capitalism and communism with everyone getting the same wage?.

In fact, what she is saying is that she doesn't want communism and she doesn't want capitalism, she wants something in between. She wants a fair system or something like Blair's third way. Nick Clegg also said he wanted a fairer way. She's not as stupid as all that.

claig · 21/10/2011 16:33

I think the protestors have been sucked into the Church issue deliberately in order to divert attention from teh banks. We can now expect the progressive newspapers to make a big issue over the Church, one of their usual targets, and conveniently ignore the banks.

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claig · 21/10/2011 16:55

This is a classic setup. They have been asked to leave for "elf and safety" reasons. And who can argue with that politically correct concept? The protest must stop to comply with "elf and safety".

If that doesn't convince them to pack up and go home, the next thing that will be tried is the good old "carbon footprint" trick. They will be told that being gathered together in such large numbers, produces too much carbon, and they should pack up and leave immediately.

If some of them have their doubts about the veracity of the "carbon" claims, the Guardian will probably run a week's worth of stories about the "carbon" danger, together with pictures of men in strange suits and helmets carrying carbonometers and declaring that this is hastening the end of the planet.

Meanwhile the bankers will carry on as per usual, bagging their bonuses and laughing all the way to the bank.

Disputandum · 21/10/2011 16:55

I don't know whether it was a rhetorical question glasnost, but here's an article about how much land the church owns.

Fwiw I don't have much sympathy with St Paul's...they charge something like £15 entrance fee so should be able to cope with a few days of lost revenue.