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Politics

Occupy London

288 replies

glasnost · 07/10/2011 12:38

p.twimg.com/AbGk1-FCQAAjoi7.png

Well, why not MNers?

What have your kids got to lose? In NY there are alot of families with children protesting and occupying that doesn't get mentioned in the mainstream press.

OP posts:
whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 18:05

And thanks Cogito and MrPants :)

claig · 07/10/2011 18:06

'Did anyone really believe the country had the money for the plethora of services we received? Really?'

Of course we can afford it. How can we afford to pay for bombing Libya and ten year wars in Afghanistan and wars in Iraq? How can we afford billions for the olympics and billions for proposed rail projects? How, in what we are told is possibly the worst economic crisis the country has ever experienced, can we afford to increase foreign aid?

'some might say the riots in London in the summer were a sign of that'

that's what left wing phonies like Ken Livingstone say, but the riots were not political, they were about people looting electronics stores in a co-ordinated fashion.

claig · 07/10/2011 18:10

'If the metaphorical kick is that public services get cut now so that later on my kids have the chance of a career and a decent life.'

Their university fees will rise to £9,000, but they won't stop there. The public services will be cut, but then they will be cut again and again. The bankers will be back for more bailouts.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/10/2011 18:14

Headlines today are that "Moody's downgrades the credit rating of 12 UK financial firms because it believes the government is now less likely to provide support" ... Bailouts less likely.

HoneyMomster · 07/10/2011 18:15

wmmc you're pretty narky about this.

Tell you what, you stay home counting out your 35% and browsing MovetoMalta.com and let the people who want to, do something to express their own pov. Cos that's democracy.

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 18:15

Have you actually looked at what we spent

Please go look at those graphs - tell me that we can afford to go on like that.

You may not agree with war, or the Olympics (I'm with you on the latter, the former I don't think we can exit easily).

And we have to increase foreign aid because foreign investment is one of the things that will help us later on.

claig · 07/10/2011 18:17

'Headlines today are that "Moody's downgrades the credit rating of 12 UK financial firms because it believes the government is now less likely to provide support" ... Bailouts less likely.'

I wouldn't be surprised if those headlines are to try and make the public feel better and dissipate public anger, at the time of these protests. If you believe that there won't be any more bailouts then you also probably believed Gordon Brown when he said "we have only 50 days left to save the planet"

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 18:19

I am narky because frankly it's all bollocks. Whether you go or not, will make no difference, but the police service will have to spend yet more of their budget making sure you don't hurt yourselves.

I wouldn't move to Malta though. They don't sell Jaffa cakes.

Go on, knock yourselves out on your bridge, but FGS don't kid yourself that the government will turn round and say 'you are of course right, we're just being meanies. I know, let's turn every person who has more than 100k in the bank upside down, shake them and buy cakes for all of you, for ever.' Grin

claig · 07/10/2011 18:21

I didn't say I disagree with the war, the Olympics or the proposals. I was just showing that we have lots of money to spend.

'And we have to increase foreign aid because foreign investment is one of the things that will help us later on.'

But we need help now, the Governor of the Bank of England said we are probably in the worst crisis this country has ever faced. How, then, is it possible to increase foreign aid, above the level we spent when we were riding high?

CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/10/2011 18:23

It's not a question of what I do or don't believe. Moody's think those banks are more vulnerable for the reasons given.

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 18:28

Claig - It's only that bad because people won't recognise what we need to do to solve it.

I think it's largely about perception as well. The govt has not IMHO done a great job of explaining how the cuts for example in benefits will work. People need help to understand fiscal policy, it's not something we teach in schools. You are probably educated smart people - so you can read up and understand it. But the majority of people react before engaging their brains on this subject IME.

If you want to get involved get involved - your local community needs you. Go along to council meetings, find out what it's about. If you have any better ideas, share them.

claig · 07/10/2011 18:28

'I am narky because frankly it's all bollocks.'

It's not bollocks, it's democracy. The parties always accuse teh people of being apathetic about politics, but as soon as the public does anything but vote for their local MP, they are told it is the wrong thing to do. What will Miliband say? Will he say the same as he told the public sector workers when they went on strike i.e. it is teh wrong thing to do?

I also don't believe that anything will come of it. But I may be wrong, and the people doing it believe it is worthwhile. There is no harm in trying to change things by democratic protest movements. How would the suffragettes and the Civil Rights movements have achieved anything if they had sold goods at car boot sales and donated it to Public Services.

I think that many of the demands of the protestors are deliberately designed to undermine the effectiveness of the protest (i.e save the planet and all the usual left wing guff), they all seek to deflect from the real protest against the bankers.

claig · 07/10/2011 18:32

'Moody's think those banks are more vulnerable for the reasons given.'

You have a lot of faith in Moodys. Did Moodys warn people of the financial collapse, of the imminent collapse of Lehmans and Northern Rock etc?

Moodys are part of the system.

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 18:33

Yes agree, once people start saying 'and we are killing the planet' or worse 'and it's all your fault for letting is so many foreigners' all hope is lost. If over 10% of the country turned up, it'd be a worthwhile protest. But that's fairly unlikely isn't it.

Anyway, do wash your hands a lot. I may not disagree with you but I meant what I said about flu season. Snotty and disgruntled is never a good look Grin

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 18:33

May not agree with you. Damn it! :)

glasnost · 07/10/2011 18:33

occupylondon.org.uk/

The occupation begins 15 October and is of the Stock Exchange. 9 Oct there's a block of Westminster Bridge organised by UKUNCUT (info here). The idea's to have a general assembly within the bridge block to decide how to progress on the 15th.

OP posts:
EldonAve · 07/10/2011 18:41

What a crap place for a protest
Great way to disrupt emergency vehicles accessing the hospital and ordinary people visiting people there

HoneyMomster · 07/10/2011 18:41

fgs so nobody should do anything til they've got 6 million others to do it as well?
Somebody tell every other grass roots movement throughout history to sit down and shut up, you'll achieve nothing

CogitoErgoSometimes · 07/10/2011 19:02

Movement for what, exactly?... Have a bit of a whinge? Really, this isn't some noble claim for civil rights, the cessation of war or the abolition of slavery. It's mass grumbling.

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 19:03

Quite so Cogito

ttosca · 07/10/2011 19:19

^What a crap place for a protest
Great way to disrupt emergency vehicles accessing the hospital and ordinary people visiting people there^

Good try, but actually the protest organisers are in close contact with the local hospital and have agreed to facilitate movement of emergency vehicles over the bridge. The hospital supports the protests.

ttosca · 07/10/2011 19:21

Cogito-

Movement for what, exactly?... Have a bit of a whinge? Really, this isn't some noble claim for civil rights, the cessation of war or the abolition of slavery. It's mass grumbling.

It's a protest against the privitisation of the NHS, of which the Tories have absolutely no mandate.

ttosca · 07/10/2011 19:21

UK Uncut: Stop the traffic to stop the NHS being run over

On Sunday, Westminster Bridge will witness a spectacular mass occupation. This event, organised by UK Uncut, will seek to block the government?s health and social care bill, due to face a lords vote on Tuesday. In the run-up to the vote, activists have been contacting the key Lib Dem and Crossbench lords to encourage them to oppose the bill.

Westminster-BridgeThose taking part have good reason to be angry. It is difficult to think of a more flagrantly anti-democratic stitch-up than Andrew Lansley?s proposals for the NHS. They were in neither the Conservative nor the Liberal Democrat manifesto, and appeared nowhere in the coalition agreement.

Quite the reverse, in fact: explicit promises were made against such ?top-down reorganisations?.

As one senior Tory told Sky, ?it wasn?t in our manifesto, so we?ve got no mandate for it?. There is simply no evidence of any public desire or support for these proposals.

Nor is it clear why the dire need for this kind of ?revolutionary? change arises. Public satisfaction with the NHS has never been higher; studies have repeatedly demonstrated its outstandingly efficient and effective public health provision. The government?s suggestions to the contrary have been shown to be both cherry-picked and utterly misrepresentative.

Its claims of ?evidence-based? policy too have been exposed as selective and mendacious. The government had supportive GPs specifically selected to present to the public in a desperate attempt to convey an - utterly misleading - impression of consent among the medical community. And its feted ?listening exercise? ? a response to the outcry against the reforms from the medical establishment and the public - proved little more than a sham, with the government privately refusing to budge on its core proposals and simply re-labelling previously organised outreach events.

In fact, the government appears to be responding to the priorities of a rather different constituency.

The Tories have been bankrolled to the tune of hundreds of thousands of pounds by private health interests. Senior Tories and their advisers who helped draft the legislation have strong links with the same interests. So too do the corporate-funded front-groups and think tanks who have lobbied hard and helped forge the health and social care bill, successfully securing ?a tsunami of reorganisation? offering ?massive opportunities for private health companies?.

Almost regardless of the bill?s content, there has seldom been a worse point to pursue another costly ?re-disorganisation?. The government has imposed an astonishing £20bn of ?efficiency savings? on the NHS - a level never previously achieved by any health service, anywhere in the world, at any time, and roughly double the private sector?s efficiency gains in the decade up to 2007.

In reality, this means devastating cuts, with massive lay-offs of frontline staff already taking place. Both of these, too, we were promised never to see take place. Into this mix the coalition will be ?tossing a hand grenade? at the existing NHS management structure.

Many of the staff consequently jumping ship are likely simply to be re-hired, possibly by private firms, in a massive and dizzyingly rapid overhaul of the NHS?s management. The roll-out of this more fragmented system across England is likely to be incredibly expensive ? with costs that could easily run out of control. Many experts have predicted catastrophic results.

But the contents of the Bill are just as devastating. It is widely acknowledged that these reforms will effectively abolish the NHS in England. They also represent a rapid and radical stepping-up of the steady privatisation overseen by previous Governments. And their consequences are likely to be grim.

To begin with, the Bill removes the responsibility of the secretary of state for health to provide a comprehensive health service in England ? a central principle of the NHS. Democratic accountability will effectively disappear, and no such requirement is imposed on the new management structures. As the FT has noted, ?national standards for care are to be abolished?.

All hospitals will be turned into money-making foundation trusts, organised much like private businesses. Scarce resources will necessarily be allocated on the basis of profit, not need.

Unless they are specifically protected, highly-valued but costly departments, such as A&E or maternity wards, may simply be closed, many hospitals ending up as little more than ?glorified health centres?. That?s if they survive at all ? many will simply go to the wall, leaving patients without the appointments, operations and services they expected and need.

Foundation trusts can generate revenue by treating private patients ? and the cap currently limiting the number of private patients they can treat will be lifted. The result will be a two-tier system, with paying customers fast-tracked to the front of a growing queue of ordinary NHS patients. ?As the private healthcare providers flourish?, predicts one commercial pharmacist, ?the NHS will become a last resort?.

The Health service will be cracked open, allowing private companies to step in ? with some already planning to take over hospitals.

With sharp constraints on the NHS budget in place, this can only force incumbents into atrophy or collapse. Profit-motivated companies are likely to cherry-pick the operations they provide, offering cheap, easy treatments, and leaving the public to pick up the tab for the rest. By competing to undercut each other, they could drive down standards across the board.

New consortia will see medical practitioners commissioning services for patients. But the system will be riddled with conflicts of interest.

GPs will be both buyers and suppliers. Worse, they will always have one eye on costs ? particularly in the absence of economies of scale ? and will be under pressure not to provide costlier treatments and referrals. They will even be able to impose charges, choose what to charge for, and pocket the ?savings? made as income. The results for the relationship of trust between doctors and patients could be fatal.

Overworked and overwhelmed medical practitioners, lacking experience and expertise in commissioning, are likely either to divert scarce time and effort into management; to (pointlessly) re-hire management staff, while the public eats an estimated £1bn in redundancy costs; or to bring in private businesses (with preparations already underway) who can then siphon off the ?savings? they make.

Providers will be required to avoid ?anti-competitive? practices - enforced through the ever-looming threat of legal action, naturally to the benefit of those companies with the deepest pockets. But this will fragment the system even further, potentially punishing doctors for recommending trusted specialists, sharing expertise, developing relationships, or co-ordinating their activities in the ?complex care pathways? required to treat long-term conditions.

As such fragmentation becomes the norm, trainees? ability to gain a sufficient breadth of knowledge and experience will be in jeopardy.

As BMA council member Ian Banks recently put it:

?If someone is trying to strangle you, there is only so long that you can say: ?Would you mind using only one hand, or would you mind using a breath freshener?? At some point you are going to have to give them the old Glasgow kiss. These are not reasonable people; we must not allow them to destroy our NHS.?

This week will be perhaps the public?s last chance to fend off our assailant before England?s NHS passes into history. In joining UK Uncut?s action on Sunday, we might just be able to prevent the unthinkable from taking place.

www.leftfootforward.org/2011/10/tim-holmes-uk-uncut-stop-the-traffic-to-stop-the-nhs-being-run-over/

claig · 07/10/2011 19:28

More right wing Republicans are against bank bailouts than big government supporting Democrats. 77% of Republicans support "Occupy Wall Street" and only 42% of Democrats support it.
blogs.dailymail.com/donsurber/archives/43730

But, you have to wonder whether these protests may be some form of political trick by big government supporting Democrats, preparing for the elections in 2012. The fact that they are including "save the planet" and lots of other demands that have no hope of success, may mean that nothing will really change with regard to banking bailouts and was maybe never intended to change.

usliberals.about.com/b/2011/10/07/occupy-wall-street-movement-could-influence-2012-elections.htm

whomovedmychocolate · 07/10/2011 19:32

Regurgitation gives me wind. Forgive me if I don't join you, I'm going to IKEA. I understand if you read some deep meaning into that but actually I need blankets.

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