The elderly verses todays middle classes.

[ivanhoe]

Today's largely self interested middle class generation probably dont know or care that our elderly people came though much harder times, if they didnt have something, they went without. And they paid their contributions and their taxes when working

I despise Thatcher for her facist doctrine of the individual over society and community.

H'mm. There's a completely different view here: www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/19/sad-society-young-riots

Polly Toynbee says the 45 - 65-year-olds have had great lives and are now refusing to invest in the young.

Or did you mean elderly as in older than 65, Ivanhoe? I do agree with you that they are not looked after as they should be.

Solopower, At last, someone with a social consecience.

Yes. If she is right that the baby-boomers don't value the younger generation, it's sort of suicidal, really, isn't it?

When I first realised how unbalanced society was getting, with fewer babies being born in industialised nations, I remember thinking that young people would become precious, because there would be relatively few of them, and we would start looking after them as they deserve.

Instead we've got this strange situation with all the power in the hands of the 45 - 65-year-olds who have had the best of everything, but have created a world that is so unjust and sad for the younger and older ones.

///Instead we've got this strange situation with all the power in the hands of the 45 - 65-year-olds who have had the best of everything, but have created a world that is so unjust and sad for the younger and older ones.////

Yes, I could not agree more.

You really are an odd little creature ivanhoe.

I agree with solopower

You have no idea how odd, bib.

my MIL and mother did very little paid work (along with many women of their generation) and consequently paid negligable tax. think your argument very muddled. their husbands were able to retire at 60 and both have so much spare cash they donate some to their middle class children (who are desperately saving so they might be able to retire one day, and support their kids through uni) - despite both working.

i think, as usual Ivanhoe, you have your facts wrong ref older gen. though i agree younger ones have been shafted.

dreaming, do carry on dreaming. I have my facts right.

i am dreaming - of retiring at some point before i die of overwork.

There's no way generation x are going to get a pension or retirement. The baby boomers will have spent it all a long time before we get there.

The please explain the phenomenon of the 'sandwich generation' - my parents fit the category and I am under no illusion that my DH and I will be the same.

think your age groups are wrong. I scrape into the 45 - 60 bracket (just) so not "elderly" but your quote of the elderly fits me perfectly - if I don't have something, I go without. I pay my contributions and my tax. I have always worked except for short maternity leaves, never had a penny off the government (xcept for universal child benefit which went towards day care costs) and now just when I thought the up hill slog was going to flatten out a bit I am worrying about uni fees for my children. Where is the super life I should have had as i am aged between 45 to 60???

The "sandwich generation" is just babyboomers moaning about looking after their parents. Previous generations did exactly the same, just didn't complain about it.

dreaming of sun - me too - in fact why bother saving for a pension as I will not need it. If I keep up this pace much longer I will go pop!

But in the good days there was no such thing as inflation and coming out on a fixed income (which was nothing less than a golden handshake) wasn't an issue. Most elderly retired early and their children had left home early themselves and had their children when they were young..

Many 'middle aged' people have delayed parenthood, have complicated family arrangements (many divorced, new families) and parents with eroded savings and children who have no intention of leaving the home and facing incredible financial challenges..

It is a very unfair comparison

"But in the good days there was no such thing as inflation and coming out on a fixed income (which was nothing less than a golden handshake) wasn't an issue."
That's certainly not the case from the 1970s onwards which means that anyone born after around 1910 would have suffered the effects of inflation on fixed pensions.

Most of these posters are pure smug self interest. So typical of the British.

Our pensioners have paid into the system all their working lives, or if woman, raised families.

They deserve as a right, a decent State pension.

what is a middle class generation?

I have paid into the system all my life since 16. I am raising children and working full time. Where is my state pension? There won't be one.

I agree that everyone should get state pension. The thing that pisses me off is the 45-70 generation shutting the more favourable pension schemes after making sure they get them, when they haven't got enough money in them due to that generation's greedy mismanagement of them in the 80s and 90s.

My parents use their winter fuel allowance to have a free extra holiday. How can that be right.?

This government has restored the link between pensions and earnings, and is working on a plan that will raise the basic state pension by about 40% (cynically, jus in time for the now-retiring baby-boomers - but will indeed benefit all).

Ivanhoe: it is an important issue, and the coalition are the first Govt in decades to have made moves in this direction. Somehow I feel doubtful that they will get the credit they deserve for this on here.

I think you probably don't realise that you are criticising an over-lavish welfare state - Labour - and house prices/privatisation - Tory.

The 45-65 for the most part enjoyed free uni education, grants, HB during study, ability for one parent to work only due to affordability of housing, massive house price boom, final salary and public sector pensions, privatisation share benefits.

However they may be about to lose it all in care home fees, care taxes, inheritance tax and so on.

The younger generation has to pay for everything and can't afford houses.

Yes, I think we should look after our oldies. My Pils, one in their eighties, have lived an extraordinarily modest life. Now they're paying STILL into the welfare state. So much for needing all these children to look after the pensioners. The pensioners are still looking after them.

What a very interesting viewpoint.

our elderly people came though much harder times... And they paid their contributions and their taxes when working

Do you imply that today's generation - of whatever assumed class - don't pay their contributions and taxes? That's certainly the inference.

Far more people pay higher rate tax than ever before, through the magic of tax rates not being indexed.

I despise Thatcher for her facist doctrine of the individual over society and community.

OK, explain why her doctrine was fascist [which I assume you meant rather than facist]

Read the "no society" speech.
[http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/106689]

who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first. It is our duty to look after ourselves and then also to help look after our neighbour and life is a reciprocal business and people have got the entitlements too much in mind without the obligations

the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate

there are some people who have been manipulating the system and so some of those help and benefits that were meant to say to people:"All right, if you cannot get a job, you shall have a basic standard of living!" but when people come and say:"But what is the point of working? I can get as much on the dole!" You say:"Look" It is not from the dole. It is your neighbour who is supplying it and if you can earn your own living then really you have a duty to do it and you will feel very much better!"

doesn't souund much like caring for the individual over community; rather that people recognise they are part of a community.

I have always said that if Hitler could manage to brainwashed cultured Germans to do his awful bidding. The British stand no chance against Thatcher.