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The elderly verses todays middle classes.

71 replies

ivanhoe · 21/08/2011 21:10

Today's largely self interested middle class generation probably dont know or care that our elderly people came though much harder times, if they didnt have something, they went without. And they paid their contributions and their taxes when working

I despise Thatcher for her facist doctrine of the individual over society and community.

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Solopower · 26/08/2011 21:38

Who are 'the great unwashed of unemployables, ne'er-do-wells and all the other waifs and strays' you give your money so generously to, MrPants?

If someone is unemployable, all that means is that they can't get a job. Woud you want them to starve? Or is it that you just want someone else to support them?

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OneMoreChap · 26/08/2011 21:46

Solopower
If someone is unemployable, all that means is that they can't get a job

No, that means they are unemployed.
Unemployable means unfit to be employed.

Violent asocial drunk, for example.
Someone who can not turn up reliably for any work they commit to.
Someone who refuses to follow safe working practice.
Functional illiterates in some roles.

I think there are very few unemployables.

I think there are a great many more people who have not formed the habits necessary to function effectively in a workplace, and they should be encouraged/directed/compelled to form those habits, so they can contribute both their labour and their taxes to support those more needy than themselves.

Is that unreasonable?

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Solopower · 26/08/2011 22:04

OneMoreChap, I think that when people generalise about a whole group of people, they are not likely to come up with any one solution, since people can be unemployable or unemployed for all sorts of reasons.

Plus there is such a thing as simple bad luck! Would you blame someone for that? Also, people make mistakes in their lives - is that it, then? One mistake and you're out?

Once you are sure that a person does not have any mental or physical problem that prevents them from working, then I agree that some form of training might be very useful. But isn't the government cutting that sort of thing?

And where are the jobs?

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Blueberties · 26/08/2011 22:39

There were lots. Ours didn't want them. People from other countries did. Ours find a life on benefits more profitable or more enjoyable.

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Solopower · 26/08/2011 22:56

Blueberties - where's your evidence?

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Blueberties · 26/08/2011 23:00

You mean you haven't heard about the jobs created over the last ten years or so, many of which went to incomers?

This is denialism writ large no?

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Solopower · 26/08/2011 23:28

Evidence that people find a life on benefits more profitable/enjoyable I meant.

Off to bed now.

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OneMoreChap · 26/08/2011 23:29

Solopower

cf.
If someone is unemployable, all that means is that they can't get a job
and
when people generalise about a whole group of people

Unemployed possibly bad luck.
Unemployable isn't.

As I said, I suspect there are few, relatively unemployable.

Training?
Like:
You will turn up at a set address every morning at, say 0845.
You will attend literacy classes if you can't read.
You will do a range of activities which will improve the eventual likelihood of you both getting and keeping employment.
You will wear the safety equipment provided.
You will follow the instructions givem

For this, we will pay you £55 per week, plus a range of other benefits depending upon your needs.

If you don't, we won't.

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Blueberties · 26/08/2011 23:32

The fact that there are jobs and they choose not to take them. Is that not evidence enough.

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Solopower · 27/08/2011 09:31

I'm in favour of education and training, OneMoreChap.

I doubt that anyone would turn down the chance of a suitable job, Blueberties. I know the media keep telling us that we're all lazy good-for-nothings and can't be bothered to work, but I think we need to look below the surface.

What I mean is, if no-one in your family has worked for three generations, and most of your neighbours and friends are unemployed, why would it occur to you to be different? I don't see the answer as removing all benefits in order to force people who have no skills, education or training into work. What work? Who would employ them? A better way would be to give them the skills, education and training, wouldn't it? Plus, there need to be the jobs available. In some areas there is 20% unemployment. If you live in an area like that, it's definitely bad luck, especially if you can't move for one reason or another.

For some reason the government seem to have decided that this is the group of people who should have to bear the brunt of their 'austerity' measures. So I wish the media would show some responsibility and run public education programmes, rather than horrible let's-laugh-and-point fly-on-the-wall pseudo-documentaries, designed to get people all hot under the collar about how our taxes are going to fund some council house tenant's 60-a-day habit.

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Solopower · 27/08/2011 09:33

We seem to have hi-jacked this thread. Sorry, Ivanhoe.

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MugglesandLuna · 28/08/2011 09:43

I do wish you would change the record.

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Blueberties · 28/08/2011 11:00

"I doubt that anyone would turn down the chance of a suitable job, Blueberties"

well why would you doubt that when it's plainly happened?

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Corvax · 28/08/2011 11:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MrPants · 30/08/2011 14:16

"Who are 'the great unwashed of unemployables, ne'er-do-wells and all the other waifs and strays' you give your money so generously to, MrPants?" Solopower

My point is that I don't generously give my money to anyone, I have it forcibly forfeited with threats of prison by a political elite who have already decided how to spend more than half of my money for me and are constantly working on ways to take even more. As for who the recipients are, my definition would be those who consistently take much more out of the system more than they will ever put back in.

"In some areas there is 20% unemployment. If you live in an area like that, it's definitely bad luck, especially if you can't move for one reason or another." Solopower

Why can't people move? I don't see the Eastern Europeans, who have taken so many low paid jobs in this country over the last ten years, being so picky about where they work. By definition, they've come from the other side of Europe for God's sake!

I say this as a Northerner who now lives in the South East, Tebbit was right about getting on your bike and looking for work - I had to do it, the Poles do it and anyone who wants out of the squalor of a life on benefits will have to do it too.

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MrPants · 30/08/2011 14:34

"those who consistently take much more out of the system more than they will ever put back in."

Sorry, for the brain donors amongst us, let me clarify this point before I'm accused of deliberately starving pensioners and the disabled to death...

Pensioners will have already paid into the system throughout their working years, of course they should be entitled to a payout from that system when they retire.

With regard to the disabled, genuinely disabled (to the point of total incapability to work) should be remunerated through the National Insurance system - probably to a level more generous than they currently recieve in my humble opinion. As for the rest, there should be a concerted effort to weedle out the fraudsters (who should be prosecuted) and those remaining should be encouraged back into work - even by bribing employers if necessary - in whatever capacity they are capable of.

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BonnieLassie · 31/08/2011 01:34

I think something is going to happen soon, as the underclass is only going to get larger, and people paying taxes are getting royally pissed off at seeing more and more of their earnings going to support these people. At what point is enough enough? Are we going to bankrupt the country in the name of the welfare state? Because that is where we are headed.

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MrPants · 31/08/2011 09:31

"Are we going to bankrupt the country in the name of the welfare state? Because that is where we are headed."

BonnieLassie we're already there. The crisis' in Greece, Italy, Portugal, Spain is caused because governments aren't able to tax their populations enough to cover their spending. The difference goes on the credit card (national debt) and sooner or later the countries go bankrupt.

Britains credit card stands somewhere between 1.1 and 4.8 trillion quid depending on how it's counted - Or to put it another way if all government spending stopped immediately yet tax continued to be collected at the current rate it would still take over a year to pay back even the lowest estimate.

There has only been one year since 1936 that tax revenues have been greater than government spending - the reason that the figures don't look even worse is because the difference has been inflated away - if you ran a household budget in the same way you'd have been bankrupted many years ago.

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BonnieLassie · 31/08/2011 14:34

So why aren't we cutting benefits?

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breadandbutterfly · 02/09/2011 16:57

Ivanhoe - you're allowed freedom of speech and so am I. I use my freedom of speech to declare you unutterably boring. :)

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ivanhoe · 24/01/2012 11:18

breadandbutterfly, I maybe boring to you, I dont give a fig.

This is Britain today, me me me. Thatcher didnt need anybody to help her turn Britain into the dump it now is.

I would say to most of you on here, that you wont be happy until your paying no tax at all, until the welfare state is abolished, including getting rid of child benefit completely. Until the NHS is completely privatised, and education has all gone private, and public transport fairs are out of reach of all of you.

We are all fast going back to the days when if you didnt work, you didnt eat, and this includes all your kids whose futures all look bleak, because the Tory's dont give a stuff about you.

I love it.

You people on here deserve the Government's you get. Tea anyone ?

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