Michael Gove is comprehensively destroying the teaching unions

[longfingernails]

Just look at the wailing and gnashing of teeth over at the Guardian!
www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/23/gove-struggling-schools-education-policy

Crap schools should buck up or close. Good ones should expand. Headteachers should sack crap teachers, and give raises/bonuses/promotions to good ones, irrespective of seniority. It's that simple.

I wonder how many Guardian writers send their children to bog-standard comprehensives? They regularly censor any comment which lists the former schools of their most prominent commentators, which show how pretty much all of them have been privately educated themselves.

Anyway, the effective loss of of national bargaining for the teaching unions is a tremendous achievement. Congratulations, Mr Gove!

Cain wrote:

"Ah there it is again, dismissed as anecdotal...I'm still not inclined, despite your obvious charm, to take your opinion as gospel. But thank you for the reading tip."

I know it's just my natural charisma ;).

For the time being I will refrain from posting a bibliography on here.

Cain -

I don't disagree with you about "inadequate" teachers at all. I just disagree about league tables.

Focus on what is to hand in your own back yard and then aggregate it later when it is successful - don't keep putting an false obstacle race in the way.

Ofsted is a "summative" inspection process - it merely comes in and mops up - the history of the organisation is such that they do not have a remit to give "formative" consultancy other than the odd report which they keep the data very much to themselves and release at times opportune to their organistion not the government (again self serving) but Ofted inspectors get into a lot of schools and they are often best placed to say what could work. HMI's had teachers' respect because they COULD offer advice and ways forward.

I agree, at the moment there is no professional collegiate school of expertise and there should be. But league tables - no way we've had those for years and they don't deliver.

Longfingernails - universal primary and secondary education haven't been going that long - oh - you are talking about generic competiton - I see...

Tourist from the future, I'm not denying you clearly know what you are talking about, I'm certainly not as well read on the subject as you but I have read some articles and could not simply post "What Tourist said..." without exploring my own thoughts on what I have read.
If I end up spouting nonsense (courtesy of teachers) on the way then that is just a learning opportunity and I wouln't be the first to do it.

I think there should be much more observation going on in schools and if it is done correctly it need not be demoralising.

I must be observed by other teachers, including senior management most weeks, I also constantly watch and learn from other teachers. As a staff we are constantly training ourselves and each other. Every member of staff is expected to be taking a Masters, be involved in research, enhancing subject knowledge or something similar.

I do not recognise some of the descriptions of a sterile profession given above.

Cain -

What should have happened is that the school took your concerns about your child on and put in place good mentoring for the teacher - a culture of learning and competency.

It often isn't just the individual teacher it is the management and how they "manage" people - and that has been shown to be time after time to be another deciding factor - it doesn't matter if you are an Academy, a Free School, an Indie School, a Comp, a Grammar School - good management is what it is all about and how people learn.

There is no El Dorado of league table efficiency. And neither is the lie we are selling our young people about guaranteed work after 3 - 4 years Uni and the equivalent of £50 - £60K debt. We'll just be left behind as dodos in the global economy if we can't come up with smarter and more genuine solutions for what education actually "is". Collaborating rather than constantly competing might just be more efficient in this environment - you never know...

desperatelyseekingsnoozes - that is what a teaching "profession" should be - but some parents do experience "bad" management and their children get let down by individuals.

I know some children get let down by bad management and teachers, it has happened to my own children and I have witnessed it myself.

I do think, however , that if observation becomes the norm, rather than just something that happens to failing teachers, everyone benefits. All teachers sometimes come across a class or pupil they find difficult, the key is stepping in early and dealing with it so the one class or child doesn't become reflective of a teacher's whole career and more importantly a chiuld's experience of a subject.

desperatelyseekingsnoozes - I totally agree and hope you are in or thinking of going into, senior management - we need people like you who are pro rather than re active in this sphere. :)

I never really cared that much about my children's schooling - I could always offer them far more input at home than any school could (until recently in 6th form) but I fully admit not everyone has that option - although, in an ideal world, the community should pull together to deliver it rather than just the school.

desperatelyseeking - I think you're right about observations, particularly that the reason for them needs to change in order for it to be effective. As I said, my school is currently in special measures. If I am observed, it's by SLT, HMI, reps from the LA or OFSTED. It's always about making a judgement, which is unhelpful (though often nice, as I rarely get anything other than good or outstanding [smug]). However, I recently went on an excellent course, which was done over 5 consecutive Thursdays, part of which involved observing other teachers for no reason other than to see what they were doing and learn from watching. THAT sort of observing is brilliant. There were three of us from my school on the course, and we were encouraged to observe each other too, but not with any official pieces of paper in front of us. It was such an excellent experience - I learned loads from watching my colleagues. We discussed the idea of staff being able to watch each other with SLT, and they agreed, but fell short of making it a recommendation for everyone, which I think is a shame.

The post about more frequent observations earlier was to do with judging and thereby creating league tables. That certainly would be demoralising (at best) and pointless (at worst)

touristfromthefutureMon 30-May-11 20:43:40

Cain -

What should have happened is that the school took your concerns about your child on and put in place good mentoring for the teacher - a culture of learning and competency.

I have never know a school to take my concerns and act positively on them, in terms of development of the teacher. If it happens, parents don't get told about it and are given the impression that of course there is no fault in the teaching.

I won't bore you with an anecdote but I have been made to feel like a pushy parent for expecting my child to be taught at his level. Had it been left to a certain school, ds would have entered secondary school unable to read, as has happened to another child.

Cain - A student being unable to read on entering secondary school is unbelievable but I agree it does happen. All the evidence shows that pre 48 months is the time where literacy is "really" forged. A lot of schemes such as Reading Recovery, Books for Babies have been cut by the present government - it is short-termism unfortunately and always backfires 5 or ten years down line - hence my comments on not being able NOT to afford these schemes. All the data points to this being the time where you "get" reading unless you are truly dyslexic (and people are).

The culture of reading is within families and not schools unfortunately. But I hope you noticed my comments about opening schools up to parents - but it IS a two way process. Many of today's prisoners (an extremely high percentage) are illiterate and it begins with exclusion from school's for behavioural infringements in the past. Schools will have to offer more systemic services to cope with society's ills and cultures of 3 generation illiteracy if things are going to change. Unfortunately politicians have woken up to this very late - any inner city teacher could have (and did) tell them this was the case in the past. They are 20 years behind the curve.

One of the reasons why academies appear to work in some places is that the students are at school earlier (breakfast clubs) and later (homework clubs) than their peers in comps but good comps do this too. Not dissimilar from indie schools - no-one has a copyright on good practice and good state schools are giving the indies a run for their money increasingly - so much so that indie's are converting to academies. It's not rocket science to see that the more time you spend productively within a school community engaged in fun things the more you will learn DESPITE your parents...

touristfromthefutureMon 30-May-11 22:22:25

Cain - A student being unable to read on entering secondary school is unbelievable but I agree it does happen. All the evidence shows that pre 48 months is the time where literacy is "really" forged.

Yet it takes such a long time to get even an assessment considered for dyslexia, I couln't get nursery to entertain the idea and ds was 6 before the school would even start the process. It was so slow during which time I was given no information or advice.
I had already started using techniques suggested by the dyslexic societies I had contacted, without that he would be so far behind in school its frightening.
I do hope things have changed since ds went through the process.

But I hope you noticed my comments about opening schools up to parents - but it IS a two way process.
I did notice and would support that, it would aid communication immensely.

Many of today's prisoners (an extremely high percentage) are illiterate and it begins with exclusion from school's for behavioural infringements in the past.

I was aware of the statistics regarding illiteracy in prisoners.
I read that increasingly prisons are using Toe by Toe which is what I used to help ds to 'get' reading.
Perhaps with the return of Books for Babies etc. Toe by Toe should also be on the list.

Jade08 we got monkeys alright, can you imagine if like nurses teachers were named and shamed online they union would have a stoke

In caparison to other profession hardly nay etchers have been dismissed now either their much better at their jobs than doctors,nurses, police or fireman or they are being shuffled around

Evil twin suggest it makes no sense for heads to do this well to me it makes every sense

You get the failing teacher in read them the riot act tell them if they will go quietly they will get a glimmering reference.

Win win apart from the children that is.

I think the thing that pisses most parents off its that teachers won't admit their are shit teachers who fail children

Ofsted knows it,parents know it, gov knows the only people who don't seem to know it is the teachers

The police used to be the same never admitting their was a bad apple amongst them but with the invention on the camera phone they couldn't hide it any longer and because they don't have a militant union if a policeman acts up you ca pull him off the beat and get him behind a desk away from the public

No such luck with bad teachers they either need to be sacked or put in the nursery were they can do little or no damage even my so can teach ba ba black sheep

Cain - I have not heard of Toe by Toe but it looks excellent. Of course the phonics test is not going to help someone with dyslexia in the least.

Maypole1 - The "nursery" or Early Years, Reception or Foundation Stage as it is now called, is probably one of the most challenging places to teach and I've taught from Reception to Secondary students. Put a failing teacher in there and you could do inestimable damage for years to come.

Cain - the process of finding and helping students with specific special ed needs is still far too slow - there are still quotas and I should imagine that may have got worse. Again, this is what I mean by we cannot afford not to put money int these measures. Our children are our futures any teacher who is a parent understands that right to the core of their bones. We always want the best for them but the system can work against us at times.

really i would of t think a failing teacher would do more damage in year 5 and 6 really.

but i think the whole issue is they should just be sacked not moved around

and toe by toe is fab they teach this in my los school

I think to a certain extent there is some moving around of teachers, not deliberately but because some teachers do not suit some schools. Schools vary wildly. some one who could teach in a grammar may not suit someone who teaches in an outstanding comp. Someone who thrives in a comp with excelletn beahviour woudl struggle in a tough inner city school. Management styles of schools of the same type vary wildly.

I worked with a teacher in my department who just could not cope with a state comprehensive school. He now teaches in a well known boy's public school and it is a match made in heaven. I work with another teacher who could not work in a grammar school because of the reliance on text book work and she wanted to be more creative but still work with able pupils, she is with us and is thriving. She was thinking of leaving teaching. Conversely we have just lost a teacher to a grammar who preferred that style of teaching and did not want to have to teach low ability children.

eviltwins Yes I did go to a lovely state school and it was shite, and I can compare it to todays, as nothing has changed, many children who attend state schools end up sweeping floors, very rarely are they told they can become anything they want. I'm not elitist far from it, if state schools disciplined children/expected more/corrected homework/stopped an all time high in truancy rates I would consider a state education for my son. It's not like that is it? That is It's the reason I have a tutor my child, not to get him into a selective state school, but to get him into a public school! I have very little faith in selective schools either! As I said to you if I did not tutor him he would not pass an entrance exam to get into a public school. Have you a PROBLEM with people like me and my husband who want the best education for their children, and work damned hard to get it? I know of many state schools, who are not only crap, but also have charming pupils who are in GANGS. I know of parents whose children have been attacked by gangs after school, one child has had a cousin murdered some months ago. Yes I do want out of the state system and out of shitty state education. So please don't lecture me on tutoring or homework. I normally do not make my posts personal, only general, but I make an exception in your case, because I AGREE with LFN and disagree with you.

complimentary - good for you. Well done. Is that what you want me to say? You are completely at liberty to do whatever the hell you want with your own child, but DO NOT try to make out that you are an authority on ALL state education because YOU had a shit time at school and know of other people who have had issues. I don't deny that there are issues with state schools. But do you honestly think that all independent schools are immune to problems? I know of people whose children have been bullied mercilessly at private school. I know of girls who take anti-depressants and have developed eating disorders at private schools. I know plenty of people who attended independent schools who also have shit jobs.

So you want out of the state system - I've already told you I don't give a fig what you do with your own child. But your anecdotes of how terrible your school experiences were do not count as evidence that all state schools are shit, sorry.

Put it like this - I went to the dentist recently. I had a terrible time. The dentist injected anaesthetic into my gum then left me in the waiting room so long that it had worn off, THEN he started drilling. Oh, and then he put the filling into a different tooth than the one he'd told me he would be filling. Does this meant that ALL dentists are shit, or that I had a shit time at one dentist? Think about it.

desperatelyseeking - I totally agree with you that some teachers do not suit some schools, but really - a system of moving teachers around? There seems to be some kind of misconception that HTs telephone each other and say things like "Hello, I've got a Science teacher here who can't cope with our students. Do you want him at your school?" It's not like that - no one gets a job unless they apply for it, attend an interview and is offered the job. Given the odd opinions of some on MN about teachers, supporting the poster who thinks that failing teachers just get shunted around seems a little counterproductive.

Maypole - There are shit teachers who fail children. Just like there are poor doctors, rubbish solicitors, terrible accountants, IT managers who don't know what they're on about and shop assistants who can't do their jobs. I admit it. But I also maintain that there aren't that many shit teachers, and that generally schools deal with them appropriately, enabling them to improve and for the impact on children to be as low as possible.

However, you don't see many threads on here about rude shop assistants or IT managers who mess up. The amount of teacher bashing from people like you, who can't string a bloody sentence together, is dreadful, so is it any wonder that teachers get wound up by it? If you think teachers are so universally awful, Maypole, can I suggest you home educate your DCs? At least then you'll know who to blame if they don't do as well as you think they should.

I agree evil twins there is is no great plan between headteachers. But when writing references I may say on a teacher that they have excellent subject knowledge but that classroom management in this school with our issues is a problem but in a different school it may not be.

Different schools have different needs and headteachers can work that out for themselves.

My current school requires me to have an outstanding subject knowledge but the demands on my classroom management skills are not great. Therefore as long as I can manage a group of mainly compliant teenagers I will be fine.

Until I entered teaching I was spending around £100K a year on school fees , most of my children are now in the state sector and we are all very happy. There are good schools oin both sectors. I do not think I am dooming any of my children to sweeping floors and we have high expectations of them whether in the state or independent sector. As far as I am aware their teachers feel the same.

The numbers of teachers sacked for incompetance is very low and lower then probability states it should be. Whether taking the approach the OP suggests to deal with this problem will help is debatable at best.

Eviltwins. Funnily I agree with a lot of what you say! I'm saying that were I live the state schools are not good on the whole. Some state schools in some parts of the country are perhaps 'good', although I don't believe they can beat the education that a well resourced public school can give. I don't just talk from my own experience, I worked with children for many years as a social worker, and on schemes for deprived children. I saw first hand that many children were leaving school without the basics and could not read and write properly. Discipline was another issue that was out of control in some schools. I agree with your point about bullying, although as far as I'm aware gangs don't enter into public school life. The difference in public schools is that when a child is undisciplined and disruptive, they are on 'three strikes and you're out' policy. Unlike the state system that can't get rid of the disruptive/aggressive for love or money.

touristfromthefutureTue 31-May-11 04:01:57

Cain - I have not heard of Toe by Toe but it looks excellent. Of course the phonics test is not going to help someone with dyslexia in the least.

You do make me laugh but I have to know; why do you say that?