webchat with "loons, fruitcakes and racists"

[glasnost]

Is it ok for MN to be hosting a webchat with someone branded the above by our PM?

That is the key issue. I am a democrat, I believe in real democracy, in proportional representation and referenda. I believe the people should decide, not their "representatives", who can decide that they know best. I believe that when the Irish perople voted "no" to teh Lisbon Treaty, their will should have been accepted. i don't think that their representatives should make them vote again until they get it right.

In real democracy, there will be things that we don't agree with, but they will be the view of the majority. I didn't like the fact that Scotland might have had the ability to stop the English from getting rid of a Labour government, but that is tough, that is democracy as we have it.

Of course, the other thing is that our representatives are often influenced by big money lobby groups. Stephen Byers said that he was "a cab for hire". Sometimes the will and interests of the people are ignored, because powerful business interests get their way. All of us are now paying the price of bailing the banks out. We have no say in it at all.

They award themselves bonuses and meanwhile public sector workers experience cuts. Who voted for that?

Yes Claig real democracy. Unfortunately we don't have it here, and never will while we are part of the EU. Like all the other member states we will have our sovereignty denied by faceless Brussels bureaucrats.

The EU is deeply unpopular with British people, as it's not democratic. Britain should run it's own affairs, not Brussels.

Goodnight!

Goodnight complimentary.

complimentary is right, it is about democracy. Arthur Scargill is against the EU because of the democratic deficit. It was the Tory, Ted Heath, who wanted us to join the EU, and many Labour politicians campaigned against it. I think even now Tony Benn is against it (I'm not sure), due to the fact that it is undemocractic. Democracy and freedom are more important than money. One day our freedom may be eroded, then it will be too late.

I don't agree. I believe in democracy but I do not believe that the average British citizen does not have the depth of understanding necessary to vote on some legislation.

Not all, but the more complex laws.

Especially with papers such as the Daily Mail exerting huge influence on the political mindset of the population.

I think there is a major problem with the democratic deficit that exists within the EU. Jose Manuel Barroso has never been elected by anyone but he does yield a lot of power and he has no democratic mandate. I agree with Barroso on most issues but do recognise this democratic deficit, I don't see an easy solution however. On the one hand we could have a Europe wide election of the President of the European Commission but this would also raise democratic questions so there isn't an easy answer for the EU.

Yes, that is an elitist view. It is probably the view shared by the public school educated, Oxbridge PPE graduates, parachuted in to stand as MPs in safe seats. They hate the Daily Mail because it disagrees with them and exposes them when they lie.

The people are clever enough to understand. They should have access to the information and the BBC should be presenting them with the facts and information (just as the Daily Mail does). Then the people should decide. It's good enough for the people of Switzerland, why is it not good enough for the people of Britain?

Have they dumbed down our education system to such an extent that we are not able to understand if lobby groups are influencing policies?

Claig. The education system keeps the working classes politically ignorant. Since when are politics or democracy discussed regularly in state schools? If like me you hailed from a working class background you did not have a clue about politics, lobbying for me was what 'posh people did!' (and still do). Paul Willet's wrote an excellent book 'Learning to Labour' and it's still applicable today. Talks about how young working class school boys saw no future in a education system that would only in the end provide menial jobs.

I know someone studying for a degree in sociology and criminology. I asked out of interest what paper had the University recommended that he read. "The Guardian" was the reply. It's the same paper that I was forced to read by lecturers years ago. At Uni they make you feel a fool if you even touch the Daily Mail, It's all wrong and indoctrination. I know that SOAS in London refuse to have the Daily Mail in stock. It's the same in many universities.

'I know that SOAS in London refuse to have the Daily Mail in stock.'

Are they afraid of the truth?

We're not living in a democracy - how can we be when

most of our laws/rules/ we are governed by are made by people we never voted for?

Democracy is not voting out one sack of idiots cos you just can't take them anymore - to vote in another lot - that's all we ever do here.

Swap labour for Tory - it's like swapping a carrot for a courgette - The meat is in Europe - and you have eat that whether you like it or not.

Ps; complimentary - The NewStatesmen/Economist are usually recommended - ( in my experience ) tutors want you to get used to good styles of writing - not sensationalist piffle you get in most of the popular press - the Guardian included,

Claig
I am far from elitist. I am not a graduate, I don't even have half-way decent A-levels. I am from a working class background and I am the only person in my family really interested in politics. If you could see the posts on my (extended) family's facebook walls, you would see that they are highly influenced by Daily Mail/Express type journalism.

It is not about being a snob. It is being realist.

I agree with you that the EU needs far-reaching reform, but I don't agree with putting too much power in the hands of the people.

Please don't compare the generations of direct democracy in Switzerland with what would happen in UK. The Swiss have actually voted for a rise in taxes. Do you think that would happen in UK in the current political climate?

I see with what you are saying, and it is about balance. But, are the opinions of your extended family really worth less than the opinions of the Guardian intelligentsia? Does democracy count? Why bother allowing them to vote, if we disregard their opinions?

I think we should have a referendum on university fees. Let's see what the will of the people of the country is. Let's make the decision democratic. Many leftwingers say that they would like to pay more tax. Let's see if they vote for it in a referendum.

I don't know too much about the Swiss system, but it sounds good. It sounds like the people have a real say.

I think that the UK uses referendums too little.

The problem is that you need to "train" people to use these direct democratic tools, imo. Otherwise you have two strong lobbyist groups fighting it out, and only a small section of the population actually paying attention and voting.

Of course people should have a voice, but then we have to expect them to inform themselves of both sides of the debate before making a decision that will affect the lives of many.

The UK press is very biased, either to the right or the left. Since most people buy just one newspaper, they are having their own political ideals strengthened (since we buy papers that reflect our politics).

Yes, I agree, we need more political education. Less about wags, and more about issues that affect our lives. The people who are not interested won't turn out to vote. People who take an interest will vote and feel that their opinion and vote counts. It will lead to a more informed, more engaged, more responsible populace. We need more than two parties, we need lots of different interests all presenting their case. We need more open decision making. We need more ordinary people to get involved and fight for local and national issues. Hopefully, the end result should reflect the will of the people better than what happens now.

Presumably, the Swiss people are more informed and involved and less apathetic than the British people, because they have a voice. What percentage turn out do the Swiss get for their elections?

Just googled that, Claig. Funnily enough, it has gone down since the 1960s to just under 50% for the general election.

The % for the referendum is even lower - at around 40%.

Hmm. So much for the Swiss direct democracy. Seems that they are not as interested as it first appears.

Even UK has higher turnout!

yes, I am surprised about the general election turnout, that is very low.

I am not too surprised about the referenda, because many people won't be interested in certain issues.

The referendums are on very varied issues. The ones here in the last years were on late night shopping, gun law, and the ability of cantons to negotiate rates of tax with taxpayers (which is why people like Schuhmacher live in CH, so highly debated).

Turn out to the more controversial topics may be slightly higher, I guess that whether shops should open late.

Bit of light relief, this was one of the placards for the late night shopping

Who won? Did late night shopping pass?

Noooooooooooooo. The Swiss are far too conservative for that.

Oh, that is bad. It is good that they are conservative, but not to the extent that they are anti-business and turn into Marxists.

The problems within the EU and how it is run are far and reaching. I have two young children and am very concerned for their future, particularly as we are in the EU. The European Arrest Warrant for example allows British citizens to be extradited to countries with dubious records on law/courts and human rights without any evidence.www.ukip.org It is basically a form filling exercise. This person committed a crime, with further details accusing that person,they can then be extradited to said Romanian/Greek jail or one as in the link and await trial for up to 18 months.
I am not excusing anyone, if you have committed a crime, yes you should be brought to book, but evidence is needed.
The Assange case is concerning in that he leaked lots of private information about governments, and now he is accused of rape. Part of the accusation was that Assange was not wearing a condom.
I don't know whether the man committed the crime or not. It begs the question, would a man know that it is a crime in Sweden to not wear a condom? Assange failed to use a condom when asked to do so. I don't care how much stick I get for supporting UKIP. I want my children to live in a country ruled by the people for the people, not by Brussels. It is not about 'loonies, fruitcakes' or anyting else. It is fairness for my children and everyones elses. It is about the future and what I fear it will hold, it is about about providing the people of this great country with real democracy, sadly lacking at present, and it's not just coming from the EU but from the present government and past goverments'.

Switzerland sounds a great country, how do I get in?

I am referring to foreign men visiting Sweden in reference to 'condom knowledge' and not Assange.

Complimentary
From what I have read of the Assange case, the condom is only a small part of the allegations. The judge yesterday said that the allegations against Assange would be accepted as rape charges in the UK.

The condom charge is being used to discredit the accusations and make it seem like a kangaroo court ruling.

You can move to Switzerland and apply for a job anytime you want. After all, as a EU citizen, it is not a problem. :o