The Welfare Reform Bill

[LadyBlaBlah]

I am watching IDS and Davey on New24.

The top line seems to be:

1. Simplify system and make work pay - universal credit system which will be simpler and mean that it will always pay to work.

1. Sanctions - tougher and limits on what people will receive, especially HB. Prosecutions on all cheats. If you turn down jobs you will be refused benefits.

1. Take out the top down bureaucracy and use innovative solutions. Training, help and support for those who are fit to work - from specialist companies. Paid by good results - not like the previous system. Paying companies the money they save from paying out benefits.

Also get to grip with those who don't stick out jobs once they are in it - review to end the sick note culture.

Disabled - DLA will get it whether they work or not. Those who can't work will be supported.

Wants a culture of responsibility and make the system simpler.

Having worked in this sector doing some quite innovative work, (even if I say so myself), some of it makes sense e.g. the simplification of all the benefits, but as the woman from Shelter is saying, the contractual system in providing services is too complicated and prohibitive to organisations that really can make a difference.

IDS is making a promise though, so let's see.

I think these proposals make sense - let's hope they bear fruit soon.

My initial impression of the proposals is that they are well thought-out and make sense. A simpler system that caps benefits at a reasonable level is a better idea than qualifying thresholds that result in all or nothing situations. Really like the idea that turning down jobs is now going to result in penalties.... it was bizarre that the creation of 2m jobs in the last parliament resulted in 1m of them going to people from overseas whilst there were still British people registered unemployed. When growth returns to the economy and jobs are created, it would be unforgiveable if that were to be repeated.

Wait to see the details with interest but think IDS has gone about it the right way so far

1. sounds like a "motherhood and apple pie" statement. It applies only to 6 out-of-work benefits though, so though the name might be "universal", it's rather less than that, though it might pave the way to additions later.

2. Is this actually new? I'm pretty sure the concept isn't, so need detail of actual plans to implement.

3. again, sounds fine at this point. Improving efficacy of help has to be good. But how much help can be provided/afforded will matter more.

No Meditrana, number 2 is NOT new. There are already sanctions if you turn down a job. The harshness has simply increased - from a maximum of 6 months with no benefits to 3 years without benefits. It is a Tory myth that labour did not sanction.

A lot of this is already happening with the last system. The only news is really the universal benefit which if it does what they want, i.e. make it simpler and easier to take any work to get back into it, will be actually very good imo. The devil is in the detail

I will soon see whether their commitment to the supply chain of services is real too

Agree the devil will be in the detail. The RNIB and Guardian are reporting that people who are blind may no longer be eligible for Incapacity Benefit, but will be moved onto Jobseeker's Allowance instead. Nor will they be entitled to any support to get into work (most are not disabled enough, apparently). Yet 92% of employers surveyed said that they could not employ someone with a signicant visual impairment.

If only 8% of employers will consider you, and you may not be qualified to do that particular job anyway, can you really be classified as a job-seeker?

I think the idea is a sensible step in the right direction.

No system will ever be perfect but we desperately need a system which is simpler to understand & administer, doesn't mean people could be worse off working and harder on those who are taking the piss.

Agree that the devil is in the detail but as a principle, I couldn't agree more.

The priority is to stop welfare cheats - life for those who work has got much worse, which makes welfare abuse even more unfair on everybody else.

One might argue - truthfully - that the core problem needing to be fixed is that working people's lives are getting harder, but I can't see the govt going for that; welfare reform is the quick fix.

Re cutting down disability benefits: this is where the nitty-gritty matters most. It's crucial the sick and those who can't work are protected. What is being done to educate GPs about good decision-making?

Yes, it all sounds like good common sense. It doesn't matter whether it's new or not, except that if it isn't new, lessons can be learnt from past successes and failures.

But two things bother me. I heard on the news that large families are going to suffer, because there will be a cap on the amount of money that is given to each family. No family should suffer, imo. You can't unborn a child! This seems punitive to me. However, you can educate people to have fewer children, if that's what you want to do - but that costs money.

Also, I'm confused about the situation as regards single parents. I think they are going to forfeit benefits if they don't go back to work when the oldest child is 7? Is this right? How does that make sense? What are they supposed to do with the younger, pre-school children?

The government can only make single parents go out to work if they provide good, affordable, flexible childcare. And jobs, obviously. Anything less than that is not acceptable.

Good post, Corygal.

The priority isn't to stop welfare cheats - that's a very small proportion of either people or cash. The priority is to get people off benefits and into work.

OK I am largely less unimprpressed by this than I expected but can find a few anomallies:

firstly OP is worongt that DLA will continue; it will be replaced by PIP which is assessed by thedreadful ATOS and seems to penalise those with intermittent disabilities such as MS or non visible ones such as ASD; it has always been paid regardless of work status. ATM Government estimates fraud at 0.5%, underclaims at 40% and wish to cut it by 20%. numbers speak for themselves.

The second is that while I am extremely grateful we will not suffer as a family (I should start work Sep 2013) I notice that others following our route may lose: basically, for HB purposes etc Dh's student finance is included but for TCs it is not apart from a small part (the rationale being that we have to pay it back). It looks like under Universal credit that will not happen, potentially making it harder for people to retrain / gain an education which is a shame.

I also think that whilst I understand UC could be restricted to new birtgs from X date, as the other poster says you can't unborn a child- and as I know from my own experience financial status at conception and birth is not a guaranteed lifelong thing!

What is going to happen with the moderatley disabled? I can't walk very far, or for long, I don't know if anyone would employ me, there are other issues I have with my mobility. I am only elegable for lower care dla, I often wonder if I am filling out the forms properly ! Would I be penalised for not accepting jobs that would not suit my mobility not that I am on other benefits if I was to claime jsa? What help have they said they will give those with a disability to get into work? considering there are what was it 4m out of work and 1/2m jobs, what is in it for an employer to employ someone like me, when they could have 8/9 other people with no disability?

'What is being done to educate GPs about good decision-making?

Apologies, this is my field.

GPs play a very minimal role in this now, since IB was ended. thank goodness: a GP studying on my MA in ASD was asked what ASD was and replied 'hearing deficit'.

I mean, you can;t argue with that level of ignorance can you?

The problem is that whilst there was an opportunity to replace GPs with people knowing that they were talking about, they instead hired ATOS who are terrible and overturned at appeal in a great many cases (somewhere in the region of 30% IIRC), placing very vulnerable people at stress and risk of homelessness etc. ATOS will take on the new PIP contract soon.

I am not anti assessment, but I am anti assessment by know nothings with targets to reach when those targets cost people their security.

It's not as if there aren't people to do the job either: I would, like a shot, with post grad ASD training. I bet I could spot a read-a-book-on-it faker quick as anyone out there.

here's a stat to scare you: 70% of people who fail the ESA assessment but go to appeal with representation get it overturned. Instead of using that as a reason to change the ATOS approach, the government has removed entitlement to financial aid for representation instead.

MummieHunnie

Firstly the DLA review ends tomorrow: PLEASE fill it in today as lower rate seems to be up for the chop; google DLA consultation.

Secondly I aldo wonderred that; similarly would a person with caring responsibilities (includingca rers and parents) be penalised for turning down a job when they were caring for someone if they could not find childcare?

Let me repeat: this is far less worse than I expected so I am relieved. But much damage has been done (or potentially anyway) through PIP, and there will be some very serious anomallies buried in there- sucha s MummieHunnie's concern.

There was a link a while back I filled in.

I will have to deal with it then if it gets cut, I think I may get someone to help me fill out the form again, as even the bit I got I had to go to appeal I got declined, I was too bogged down with other issues to appeal when I asked for more assistance when my condition got worse. I think it doesn't help when you have an irratic condition that is not a common medical problem.

MH you'd be amazed how ahrd it is for a p[erson with somethinga s common as say ASD in a special school- it's a common theory that 50% of forms get automatic no's just to see if people bother / have the emotional stability or understanding of the system to appeal.

Happy to help fill it in for you if you get stuck; part of my job anyway. PM me if needed.

Oh and one more comment: not a criticism as such of the bill itself.

The aim of getting as many people as possible into work is laudable (assuming a sensible definition of possible is used). Am not arguing.

However that would require there to be enough jobs. the stats the Government issue agree that there are less jobs than people wanting them by some margin. Penalising people for that would be wrong so I am hoping the Government have got some damned good ideas how to change that!.

I also think the big key to getting people into work is available childcare for all. Would i work if I could access childcare for my disbalede children? yes. Case proved

It is a good idea that getting people into work, will pay better than benefits.

Time and time again, we hear that people cannot afford to come off benefits. If that is the case, then it is most definitely time for a good old shake up, but not to the detriment of those who need it.

i.e those who can work, should be able to go to work and have a better income than being on bens. Otherwise what is the point. No bloody wonder the amount of people leaving work for a life on benefits is rising all the time.

Even if there are jobs, there are people who genuinely cannot afford to take them.

That's fine euetunes if we have a system thatc an pick out those with no choice as IMO they should be exempt- in the government's opinion too, given that people receiving disability benefits are exempt from maximum income limits.

unfortunately ATOS is not that system and I fully expect many people who cannot work to become dependent on out of work benefits, and therefore struggling through absolutely no choice of their own, and without option.

I watched newsnight with an American guy comparing their system to ours, looking around Anfield, Liverpool and chatting to long term unemployed people.

He said the idea of generations not working is so alien in America. Some of them complained that they would only be £30 a week better off in the jobs that were available, his answer was that in the states you wouldn't receive any money at all if you refused work. A single mum mentioned fitting work round school hours and childcare issues and she was told that being a lone parent isn't a special case in the states. Work is available as we are importing labour from eastern europe to do the jobs that our jobless won't do.

It's time for a radical change. I know that we pay much higher taxes than in the states and expect better public services but if they can treat students and school kids the way it's going then it's time people got off their backsides and worked. Benefits should be there for people who geniunely cannot work and for a short term safetynet. Make work pay and don't give them excuses not too. I am a not a Tory btw, I am a single mum who has always worked.

Argh, i hate the old excuse "But there's not enough jobs".

Whilst that might be correct, it doesn't preclude people from having to look for work.

If you are out of work and on JSA then your right to claim JSA is there. Your responsibility is to find suitable work asap.

well obviously it sounds good, but it's quite simple, hardly ground breaking stuff
Let's see how it pans out

One thing I noticed, was that recently there was something about if you earn less than £25k you may not have to pay all uni fee's for the first year or so? Did I see that the maximum benefits paid out to a family is under that figure? If you had twins and a years gap with the next child and they all wanted to go to uni, and you were on say £35k pa, surely then it would pay to not work for a couple of years at that stage? I understand most london uni's are planning on charging £7.5k per annum, due to supply and demand.

Well I amde the argument there aren;'t enough jobs and I am not on JSA: I am looking though.

Eqastern European friends are returning home becuase they cannot get work, I know my area is one with very high unemployment (yes we could move but then DH would be out of work- swings and roundabout!).

I'd love to find work; just been trawling jobs sites now. I don't have much choice about hours though which is the killer- un til teh UK make sit compulsory for LEAs to provide chidlcare opportunities for all Sn kids then I am stuffed royally. As are very many other people indeed.

And I am presuming if I feel this as a post grad qualified person in what is technically a shortage subject (but sadly catered for mainly by the state and charity sectors) then I am assuming that if you have no qualifications at all then you really do not stand a chance.