Is capitalim dying ?

[magicbutterfly]

With the economic crisis gripping all major economies around the world, has capitalism finally run its course ?

No. I think these kind of slumps almost show capitalism is still alive and well. There's a 'survival of the fittest' element to capitalism so an economic crisis becomes like a purging disease in an overlarge population of animals. And, at its most basic capitalism means turning a profit. So whilst there is a woman with a cow who sells the milk to make a living, there will be capitalism. Pure capitalism is less common in the Western world, admittedly. Pure capitalism would mean no welfare state, for example.

survival of the richest maybe....

No these problems happen in a cycle it's not a question of 'if' but 'when' nothing is truly stable.

If you can't create enough wealth to pay your debts then something has to give. let the whole capitalist system collapse I say.

No.

I hope so :)

Selfish capitalism should be on its deathbed IMVHO.

No capitalism is not dead. Markets naturally and spontaneously occur wherever humans have goods and services which they wish to exchange. It does not need a guiding hand such as Communists and Socialists impose. It has its own invisible hand. If Govts did not interefere in markets, other than to prevent abuses and address market failure, capitalism would look after itself.

The problem is Govt have interfered too much in the current crisis rather than letting capitalism do what it does best - destroys weak and failing business models and allows new ones to flourish. Like fire, it both disinfects and nurtures.

Should money facilitate a free market, or should a free market facilitate making money?

For capitalism to die - we would need something else to replace it and provide an efficient method for producing and distributing all the goods and services we need.

I don't think anyone would seriously suggested the 20th Century's experiments with planned economies were a success.

In the absence of anything else we have capitalism. All democracies (even socialist ones) are heavily reliant on it.

And greed, selfishness and the instinct to accumulate and pass on wealth to your dc's, are not just features of capitalism - they are features of humanity. They will exist in any human society (as the communist experiments proved).

My understanding of Marx was that he saw capitalism as a step on the road to pure socialism - I just think that road is very much longer than he ancipated.

Didn't a far wiser man than Marx, Friedrich von Hayek, warn us that socialism was the road to serfdom? Isn't that what Marx really wanted?

Claig - unfortunately my knowledge of Marx owes more to Wikipedia - than my feeble attempts to read Das Kapital .

jackstarb, that's the way it should be. Why waste valuable time on patent nonsense? Leave that to the Labour party.

Jackstarb. I agree with most of your post. But as parents and I have two children, I will yes pass on money. Otherwise why have my husband and worked so hard? If not to give them a better life?

What we can pass on however with wealth is our morals. 1) look after others less fortunate. 2. Don't judge less ye be judged, etc; All biblical and I do attend church, but anyone can pass on values to their children and most MNs I'm sure do.

I myself have started to shop locally, not wanting to give my money to the grabby, greedy, large stores Tesco, Sainsbury etc.
I have saved money shopping locally and feel far better for it. Unusually for me I have not bought myself clothes for three months! Everyone knows (apart from the children) that they will get no Christmas presents next year. All I would have spent is going to the homeless at Xmas charities.

I'm sure many other MNs have done what I have. I'm sick of consumerism, and will give it a miss whenever I can. If this is part of the death of capitalism, great.

but complimentary, consumerism is necessary to keep the wheels of the economy turning and to keep the population employed. It brings prosperity. We buy tat that others make, which keeps them employed. Everyone prospers and has a job. The greens have a socialist mentality of low growth and "sustainability". The Soviets were like that too. It brings stagnation, poverty and servitude. Growth is good, both economic and population. It is many greens who are in favour of population reduction and the low growth which aims to hamper the population. It is a con. It is the road to serfdom. Capitalism is freedom.

No other economic system can realistically replace capitalism right now. Capitalism is closely intertwined with human nature which is to put themselves and loved ones first. Anyway the collapse of an economic system normally happens in the midst of civil war....

The only place I can see the erosion of capitalism is on MN.

In RL it will always naturally occur.

but complimentary, consumerism is necessary to keep the wheels of the economy turning and to keep the population employed. It brings prosperity. We buy tat that others make, which keeps them employed. Everyone prospers and has a job. The greens have a socialist mentality of low growth and "sustainability". The Soviets were like that too. It brings stagnation, poverty and servitude.

I was going to post the same thing, but probably far less eloquently

except when the Marxists get the upper hand and impose their unnatural system on the population. That's why education is so important.

Is MN Marxist Net? There seems to be an awful lot of revolutionary, rabble rousing Guardian readers, and very few upstanding Daily Mail readers.

Daily Mail readers=Sun readers with with a couple of bob in the bank.

Claig. I agree with your statement in part, but as DH says, we are not a charity to keep John Lewis, Tescos etc, going. They are only employing people because I keep spending! Tescos and others make huge profits, which they do not distribute amongst us, they pay their staff a low wage and make the shareholders happy. It does not make me happy. I'd rather support a donkey sanctuary in Sidmouth! than Tescos.

Claig what happened before we had mass consumerism? We were not less happy, we made did and mended. Why do we need consumerism at this level? As you will see I did not do an Economics degree, but this sort of spending at any cost just seems wrong and I'm certainly not a Marxist (heaven forbid if I ever resembled the Milliband's!)
magicbutterfly. I'd be embarrased to read the Gaurdian in public! It's read by the left wing so called, intelligentsia, who can't stand the working classes! Far better the Times, Daily Mail, Telegraph, and yes the Sun co's it gives away £30 holidays, or is it £15? Cheers

Yes Claig, the Daily Mail is the best paper around!

Awwww but The Sun is so much cheaper..and there's boobies..and a crossword I can complete

Supporting the donkey sanctuary is good because it helps donkeys and also the workers at the sanctuary. I like Tescos, they offer good quality and choice and they employ lots of staff. Spending there helps the economy. The important thing is to spend, as the money circulates and everybody benefits. It doesn't matter if Rooney earns millions as long as he recirculates the money into the economy. We're all cogs in this one great economy. We all want growth and that is achieved by the circulation of money. It is the contraction of money that leads to recession. It is not up to the state to decide what we should spend our money on. Businesses that offer what people want will thrive and those that don't have to change their plans. There is room for everyone, for Tescos shoppers and donkey sanctuary donors.

Before the mass consumer society, we were all poorer. We had less machines and gadgets, less cars, less freedom and choice. It is capitalism that has freed us and given us choice. There are lots of things wrong with it, but it is by far the best system and has benefitted ordinary people.

There are forces that want to turn the clock back, that want to trick us back into low growth and poverty.

Guardian readers do not hate the working class, Guardian readers are part of the thinking class.

The Mail is toilet paper with the shit already added, a xenophobic rag.

The Sun is for morons