Is capitalim dying ?

[magicbutterfly]

With the economic crisis gripping all major economies around the world, has capitalism finally run its course ?

I was, in my youth, (yes I remember that far back!) a card carrying member of the SWP.

I don't know, I just think we are animals, social animals, pack animals if you like, and it is in our nature to try to fight our way to the top of the pack, to have the most and to hang on to it, to ensure our survival and the survival of our genes and to ensure that we have power (top dog) and to only co-operate insofar as it will help us to survive, not because we actually give a flying fuck about improving the lot of those around us.

agree with Hecate. It is nature and it is good. It is what protects us all. If we weren't naturally selfish and careful about our own interests then we would be fleeced like suckers even more than we are now by the likes of Blair et al.

I think it's an argument used by those on the right to discredit thinkings on the (extreme) left- "Socialism cannot work because man is too selfish"; No! capitalism has made man too selfish for socialism to work.

Implementing socialism now would be like trying to build house on the wrong foundations IYSWIM- it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the house.

Applauds tethersend :)

But what about the people born in the Soviet Union? They had no capitalism, but they are just like us and want consumer goods and pop music and tat and fancy cars and expensive clothes and the freedom to get rich. there are many who do still want Stalinism, but it is only really to protect them from the robber baron oligarchs who rob the people's wealth. In a more stable, fair society, they would nearly all choose capitalism, just like the people of China do in their booming, growing economy.

Socialism would only work in small numbers i.e family groups or small communities. This is because everyone has a personal stake and greater interest in each other due to close proximity the larger the population gets the more we lose that connectivity with the wider population. Something bad happens to someone elsewhere you may feel sad about it but ultimately you would not decrease the quality of your own life to help them whereas you may if that problem happened to a close family member.

Capitalism is based somewhat on human nature as it is about taking care of you and your own first which is a basic survival mechanic.

Capitalism has not made people selfish that attribute would exist whatever the economic system which is why socialism could never work especially not on national or global scale.

Do you think then, that there is something different about humans - different from every other animal? in that we, underneath, would work for The Greater Good and it's only a system that made us selfish?

Ask yourself then, why we developed capitalism rather than socialism. We had a choice.

At one point in mankinds history, we were animals. we had neither. We chose capitalism. I think that tells you that it is in fact, our nature.

Otherwise we would have evolved as a socialist species, wouldn't we?

and I'm not wanting to come across as wanting a row or anything. I don't want to fight. But I just think that saying that we are only capitalist because that's the system we've got is ignoring the fact glaring at you - we've got it because we chose it. we developed into it. which means it is what we are, by nature.

"But what about the people born in the Soviet Union? They had no capitalism"

The Soviet Union was not true socialism because it came after capitalism. It was implemented by those with capitalist values; those values were therefore passed through the generations. It could never last, particularly in a world where so many countries were capitalist.

I really think it is impossible to have a socialist society after capitalism.

I like to think the same would be true of capitalism had mankind turned to socialism first; the values a (truly) socialist society instilled in people would make a (truly) capitalist society impossible. The values are incompatible.

Dedidousblonde. You say that the small shops are dearer. A girl was in the papers just the other day, saying that she shopped locally and saved over £1000.

One of the reasons I started to shop locally was to save money,(also I don't like the way Tesco's treats its suppliers) which I have. I admit I cook more from scratch ( no mean feat!) Some products are actually cheaper, or the same price. I don't want to give you a run down of the shopping but here is one, organic eggs 99p for 6 at local shop. Tesco's £1.59. I don't also now buy bogoffs which I don't need. Oh yes another one that forced me into the arms of the local shop. Cinnamon £1.59 for 12gm in Tesco. 99p for 50 gm in local shop.

It may not suit some, but it agrees with me!

"ultimately you would not decrease the quality of your own life to help them whereas you may if that problem happened to a close family member."

The concept of 'family' is one brought about by capitalism too, though. The nuclear family did not evolve naturally, and was borne in no small part of economic necessity.

"Ask yourself then, why we developed capitalism rather than socialism. We had a choice."

Good point, Hecate. I don't know why- it could just have been random chance.

Virtually all mammal species (except maybe heard animals) take care of themselves and their small group as well. Like I said it works fine in small groups. Notice however that they fight with others to make sure that their group is on top.

Also humans are from the Primates order and they all have a social system where others get further up the hierarchy. Family groupings existed long before we had even evolved as a species. By the way by family I mean 'extended' family.

I think Hecate is right. We are animals just like the other creatures in nature, and we all obey the laws of nature, a major one being self interest for survival's sake. If we weren't made like that, then we wouldn't survive, we would be mugs and be conned at every turn. There is no utopia except in imagination. We are human animals who obey nature's laws. We fought for our rights, we fought for justice, no one gave them to us. There is no socialist saviour, no Gordon Brown or Tony Blair that will look after us. Many false messiahs will con us, rip us off, give us DNA databases and take us to war, whilst mouthing socialist platitudes. It is our own self interest that helps us look after ourselves.

herd animals

we bartered rather than sharing - I'll give you this but only if I get something good for it, otherwise I'm keeping what I've got and you can starve (or club me over the head and steal it!) Not 'I'll give you half of what I've got because we're all in it together'

That's not chance. It's nature.

I really do admire your determination to believe in people as socialist at heart though.

I lost that belief years ago.

We are altruistic because it works. It is like a game theory trade off. There are some thieves and cheats who aren't, but they are the minority, because in the end they usually come to a sticky end. The biggest thieves and cheats are pied pipers like Stalin who promise utopia and deliver hell on earth, but fortunately even they come to a sticky end.

Hmm. Not really buying the 'we're all animals' line.

There's not a lot of primates running a capitalist society either, so I would have thought that it could have gone either way. It didn't. Some would say that's no bad thing.

It's not that I believe people are socialist at heart- it's just that I believe that we are no more capitalist at heart than we are socialist. Both are human constructs, and man's 'selfishness' which prevents a socialist society from working is a symptom of capitalism, not an inherent trait.

We could be having this discussion in a parallel universe lamenting the failed 'capitalist' state which crumbled because people didn't want to get richer.

Of course, we in our capitalist world have no concept of this; but it doesn't mean that it's an impossibility. It's not even something we can measure, because we are all products of capitalism, even socialists like me

Yup.

I would say that man's 'selfishness' which prevents a socialist society from working is an inherent trait, not a symptom of capitalism. Or - Capitalism is a symptom of man's inherent selfishness.

Because I don't believe that man evolved this way through chance. I belive that man evolved this way because a leads to b leads to c. Choices. A series of choices, leading down a road that ends right here. Capitalism.

When we chose to barter instead of share freely - that was a choice that showed our nature. When we chose to group together and fight each other for resources - that was a choice that showed our nature. When those at the top used their strength to exploit those at the bottom - that was a choice that showed our nature.

None of these things indicate a socialist animal.

's chicken or the egg, innit?

oh god, don't get me trapped in that one!

If I may join in - isn't part of our evolution the capacity or brain power to make more difficult choices based on what we have learned?

Isn't some of this "choice" determined by instinct and some by evolving intelligence?

And isn't it possible that because some people who seemed to do well by "capitalist" methods due to many factors, not just choice, became role models and were copied, regardless of the actual outcome of making that choice.

We see often on Mumsnet the attitude that if you "just do x y or z, or make x choice" then success will be yours. So people come back and say but I did do x y AND z, and I chose x twice to be sure, but the outcome was a failure in comparison.

So then we start sort of groping around in the dark and wonder if it's something inherent about the person rather than actual circumstances having changed somewhere along the line that aren't blindingly obvious.

Capitalism survives on rewarding competition and one upmanship over the greater good - thinking of that is a laudable by product as opposed to an obligation, because we go back to the idea that it is natural to look out for ones own survival and that of ones nearest and dearest before the rest of the herd. This overlooks that to achieve successful capitalism the herd has to work hard to succeed in the same way, while trying to promote the individuals interest at the same time. It seems a bit of a paradox.

Maybe because our economy/politics are capitalist, we confuse them with social structure, instead of looking to see how one affects the other and whether one is a result of the other or vice versa?

Very interested in all thoughts!

Is this where stupid people come to spout "common sense" about the inevitability of ideologies they have bought into?

Yes, glad you're here

The thing is competition is the very driving force of life on earth, humans may be more intelligent but there are still basic fundamentals hard wired in our very core (as a species, differs between individuals) competitive nature is one. We are like everything else a product of our environment thing's have never been equal/fair the world is not set up in that manner, more resources are found in one place than another another place is better to live all of which lead to improving survival. Which means you either take what you need or you trade for it.

The thing is capitalism is not perfect and no system will ever be as there are so many additional factors invovled. But it is the best model we have got at the moment, the UK (and most of the western countries) are not even a true capitalist state if we were then there would be no welfare whatsoever. I think the key it just getting the balance right.

complimentary admittedly most of my local shops are no longer around, but when they were they were the 'convenience' store types who had inflated prices (Spar etc) I have been in to town and bought fruit & veg from the greengrocer which actually turned out to be more expensive than Tesco.

I never buy BOGOFs I don't need anyway. That's just common sense. I never have been able to undestand anyone who buys stuff simply because it's on offer..after all, everything is only a bargain if you need it..and that applies to anything from a BOGOF in a supermarket to buying a trinket in a charity shop.

Deciduousblonde. My local shop is private, run by some Turkish people, even they are surprised,that some of there goods in the shop are cheaper than Tesco's.

I did buy bogofs, as I used to think, it's cheaper to buy two perhaps...I always bought things i really didn't need, especially if the Tesco's was large and sold clothes.

I'm glad I'm out of it.