Pressure on student fees starting to work?

[granted]

Clegg now saying that Lib Dems may abstain after all...

I suspect that virtually all Lib Dem MPs know that if they don't do a great big u-turn on this, they've lost their seats come the next election, and will then be entirely unelectable for at least a generation, probably ever.

They know that most of their voters are either students or middle-class parents of students - neither lot very enamoured of them now.

Don't forget Lib Dems, if you're reading this - not too late to change, and I'd have more respect for someone who came to their senses at the 11th hour, than someone who obstinately stuck to a course that was very, very wrong just so as not to be seen to be changing their mind.

Or to put it another way - you said one thing before the election and another straight after it. Doubt anyone will take any more offence at you switching your mind AGAIN - we kind of expect you to say stuff without thinking first, now.

Is he?

Sadly we cannot trust a word the lying little creep utters, but I'll be glad if they do actual fulfill the contract they made with the electorate.

Extraordinarily stupid of a party to betray a whole generation of first-time voters.

Yes, they're none to bright.

Heard Vince Cable (ex-St Vince) on the radio this morning, doing his best to back out of yet another promise, to nail the 'spivs' (his word) taking us all for a ride in the banks.

Now the bankers are going to be allowed to go on screwing us over as much as they like.

Oh well, power corrupts, and absolute power etc etc.

most politicians at least try to keep up the pretence for more than a couple of months after they are elected, though.

My parents always told me the Lib Dems were Tores in sheeps' clothing. I thought they were being cynical but it turns out they were right...

Yes, your mum and dad were spot on.

The Lib Dems grew from the Liberals and the SDP - the latter were the original New Labour. I'm not sure coalition with the Tories is their natural home ground.

The price they're paying now us that of being held to account to a pie-in-the-sky (unaffordable) manifesto that they never dreamed they'd be in a position to implement.

Abstaining is such a cop-out.

The Lib Dems deserve only contempt for the casual way they have broken election promises - but abstaining would be even more of a slap in the face. What cowardice.

I genuinely think that the new package is pretty good - though am pretty miffed at the unnecessary and unwise redistributive elements put in to make it "progressive". Listening to Lib Dems on various news programmes, they seem to be saying the new fees settlement does the job. So why abstain?

They are going to take the political hit anyway - whether they abstain or not. They need to stop being so yellow - in a manner of speaking!

Labour shouldn't carp too loudly though. They promised no tuition fees (and then brought them in) - and then promised no top-up fees (and then brought them in). And as for the idiotic graduate tax idea - they should get real. If they want to get back to being in government, they should learn from the Lib Dems' current problems. The moral is very clear: don't promise a stupid policy in opposition which you know you can't deliver in government.

Don't let the Cons off the hook. It's win-win for them as far as the Lib Dems are concerned. If everyone blames the Lib Dems, the attention is off them. The Lib Dems will limp away from this alliance, irreparably damaged in the eyes of a generation, while the Tories' reputation is unscathed, as they are just doing what they said they would. But they are more responsible for what has happened than anyone else.

The Lib Dems could actually be very useful here. By abstaining, they could provide the Tories with a way to back down from this disastrous 'plan' without losing (too much) face.

The Tories have a very poor reputation on social and caring issues anyway. I expect the Tory scum to behave like scum it's when the LD's copy them I feel so angry.

TBH at the next election the cuts will have bitten so deeply that both the Cons and LD's will be unelectable paticularly as the rich and powerful as usual will come out of it unscathed.

There will be demos and riots on the streets sooner or later, bring it on I say. Tories never listen to reason so they have to be opposed by force if neccesary.

Demos on the streets. The way the police behaved in this protest make this one of the scariest films Ive ever seen

I dont know why anyone is suprised by the Police thuggery, tis ever been their way.

Newwave, if Labour had remained in power, what precisely do you think would have happened? Cuts would have occurred on a larger and deeper scale than they have now, or we would have had to turn to the IMF or the EU (God forbid) for help.

I think the woman Clare Solomon who is behind all the more aggressive protests should grow up, at 37 she should know that the British public gets pissed off with violence and she will lose the support that some may be giving at the moment.

Things cost money - they have to be paid for. I don't like the ideas of loans or a graduate tax, and will pay so ds does not have to, but this has been coming for along while. Once the idea of fees had been accepted, then inevitably they would rise.

Fees may also have the affect of making people decide if they really want to go to uni or not. My god-daughter decided about 4 years ago that there was nothing she really wanted to read, and didn't want to saddle herself with debt, so went and got jobs crewing on yachts, has been round the world with someone else paying her and is currently working in Aus. That will look better on a CV than a 3rd or a 2:2 methinks as it shows initiative, drive and enthusiasm.

I really dislike the way you brand anyone who votes Tory as scum. I pathologically dislike Socialism as it doesn't work, has been proven not to work and yet people still fall for it. The one thing that strikes me about socialism is that some are always more equal than others, at the expense of those others, whilst continuing to spout drivel about equality. That notwithstanding, I don't brand those who voted Labour as scum. You do yourself a disservice and don't contribute much to debate by calling people scum. Not very grown up.

Thanks for your opening post, Granted. I don't really have anything to add to this thread, except to say people in LibDem constituencies can, by writing to their MPs, perhaps influence them to do the right thing. Just a reminder.

Scary/Newwave - I find the tribalism on BOTH sides that I see on here and the moronic positions this causes people to take deeply depressing.

Thecoalitionneedsyou. I too find it totally depressing the way that people divide into tribes on MN on most issues.

My husband say that on eduction, all the parties labour/lib Dems/Tories. Should all get together to find a way that is the best for our children. They should (if they had any sense) work togethe, not apart. I don't agree with these tution fees and have a great deal of sympathy with the demonstrators, of whom I might join in the future. But for Newwave to call the Tories 'scum' is ridiculous IMO.

Saying that I would not trust Nick Clegg again as he did say he would not allow tuiton fees to be raised.

Scary, get it right, the parlimentary Tory party are in the most scum, people who vote Tory (unless you are rich) are either misguided, deluded or selfish.

The Tories ALWAYS scapegoat and hurt the poor and vulnerable so by voting Tory......well you can work it out.

I disagree with you...I vote Tory and am neither rich, misguided, deluded or selfish. I am practical and sick of seeing British society used as an experiment by Labour.

Ha ha ha (hollow laughter) - see today's Guardian here:

www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/29/lib-dem-tuition-fees-clegg

for a good laugh.

Lib Dem activists are now pleading with Clegg to change his mind as ""Stopping this from happening is vitally important. Not just for the benefit of students but also for the Liberal Democrats."

As in sod the students, we might lose our seats too!!!

Well, if naked self-interest is what they need to motivate them, they should find plenty of reasons to fear for their seats.

Targeting Lib Dem seats at the next election to ensure none of the liars gets back in should at least ensure they don't pull that trick again.

I mean fair enough, if you vote Tory, you know you're voting for people who are ggoing to cut all spending for anyone remootely poor, left-wing or young - so students are bang on target. But the Lib Dems claimed the moral high ground - no way they can go back on their election promises without becoming TOTALLY unelectable.

Scary, I notice you did not refute the second sentence.

As for experiment what would you call the ConDems proposed cuts although I suspect I know the probable outcome.

I did, I said I disagree with you. I do, totally.

Scary, ok lets start with:

Thatcher government

Pushed unemployment over 3.5 million and hid many more on sickness benifit. It took a Labour government to reduce it below one million.

Pushed more children into poverty and "Dave" has the nerve to say Labour didnt do enough

Destroyed northern industry and communities without a second thought.

Destroyed the pensions link causing needless deaths in winter (Labour introduced pension ceredits)

Schools and hospitals fell apart under her governments stewardship with people dying whilst waiting for an operation> It took a Labour government to cut the waiting lists to a reasonable level. "Dave" has now abolished the waiting list target.

Black Wednesday, Lamont with "no regrets" about his and his governments actions (Major goverment)

Screwed up the railways with a stupid privatisation which would never work, the subsidy is now far higher in real terms than that given to British Rail

"Daves" government

Wiil destroy at least .5 million jobs by his actions, some of these people have families and mortgages, does he give a toss, dont think so.

Due to the cut in the government to council payment, home helps to be rationed or stopped, Hostels and womens refuges to be cut or closed down, Help for children with special needs and disabilities to be rationed/reduced.

HOWEVER

We can have Trident, Bankers bonuses, non doms who dont pay tax.

Did labour get things wrong, of course BUT they get things wrong trying to do right unlike the Tories who really dont care about anyone but their "class"

We hear that the Tories always have to fix the economy, possibly but Labour always ALWAYS has to fix the social damage caused by the Tories.

Last but not least a little story.

Mark Thatcher (nice lad, not) got lost in the desert during a motor rally, Maggie was on the TV with tears in her eyes until he was found (bless) at the same time her poligies were causing poverty, misery and death and she did not give a fuck

Thatcher govt - great. I grew up during the Thatcher Govt, and saw what a difference it made from the moribund, union dominated Britain of the 70s. I find it quite funny that she was toplled in 1990, and yet she is still 'blamed' for all the problems in the UK, when Labour had 13 years to institute sweeping change.....2 years longer than Mrs T was in power. Go figure.

Industry had to change, and that would have come whatever. If there is no demand for the product or it can be produced more cheaply elsewhere, then industries will die. there is no point running things at a loss.

Pension credits - not enough take up as people don't want the means testing and by the older generation it is seen as charity.

Schools fine under Thatcher - I have O levels, A levels and a degree - thanks and am state educated all the way through. Never had a problem with hospitals either.

Black Wednesday, yep remember that one - after Black Wednesday was able to remortgage at a far cheaper rate, and also remember thinking that being tied to all the other European currencies was not a good idea...haven't changed my mind there.

Trains (or the ones that I take) run ore on time than they ever did as British Rail.

Cameron is at least taking action on the deficit - how long are you going to stay in the Ostrich position? Labour (according to Darling) would have imposed more stringent cuts than Cameron has. We cannot carry on or we will end up a basket case with nothing left.

The public sector can take some cuts as there has been a massive expansion of that sector from 1997 onwards. Several are non-jobs, created purely to show off the PC credentials of New Labour. This is money to be saved in how govt is run and that is no bad thing.

Given that the consultation for altering the Local Govt finance formula only ended on 06/10, I haven't yet seen any legislation come through about this. Have you any concrete evidence that these things will happen?

We'll have to disagree about Trident - I think it's retention and eventual replacement are essential to the defence of the UK.

Bankers bonuses should be far less, but if non-doms are paying tax elsewhere on their income earned outside of the UK, then I don't see what the problem is with that. I don't expect to pay tax twice either.

Labour did not get things wrong whilst trying to do right...Labour got things wrong because they were trying to create a client state (benefits to those earning up to £60k fgs)so that they could hang on to power at all costs. They have dumbed down the education system, reinforced that the state will intervene and interfere so thinking for yourself is not necessary, introduced stealth taxes, screwed schools in non Labour rural areas like Cornwall and Devon for years by giving them less money, and persistently and knowingly underfunded and underequipped HM Forces whilst tasking them to the limit.

If you want to talk about anyone's policies causing misery,poverty and death, talk to the families of those who have lost someone in action under Blair and Brown.

Well it shows he's under pressure- but it needs more than abstaining to make a practical difference.
If the Lib Dems abstain the Tories will vote the policy through. To make a difference they need to vote against it.
Here in Sheffield Clegg is hated.Students queued up to vote for him. So many who voted for him for a radical alternative to Labour feel they have been conned.Those doing A levels are protesting not only about the fees - but losing their EMA.
There's nothing progressive about any elements of this government's policy - despite what Clegg says.
My daughter was going to study to be a clinical psychologist starting in Sept 2012- when the new fees are due to come in. She's now having second thoughts and looking at alternatives where she could train for free.
Taking on £40,000 debt is too much of a risk. The 'concession' of paying nothing until earning £21000 makes little difference; you still owe the debt. Future governments could increase impose high interest rates, increasing the debt.
Here a Sheffield Anti Cuts Alliance has been formed uniting students, trade unionists and everyone opposed to the cuts.

@Newwave -

The OBR now expects 330,000 public sector workers to lose their jobs over the next four years, far fewer than the 490,000 it forecast in its June report.

And the economy is still growing.

Ok - Osborne's way isn't the way Labour would have done it (I'm clueless about what they would have done). But Labour lost the chance to sort out the mess - when they lost the election. Labour (and their supporters) need to come to terms with it.

At the moment they are coming across a petulant children blaming everyone else for what's happened.

New Labour had a once in a generation opportunity to transform this country. They had 13 years and a massive tax inflow - IMO they blew it.

Of course the Tories are for a smaller state - they will try to dismantle much of what Labour have built. And if, as I suspect, most of it is superficial 'improvements' rather than sustainable and imbedded - it will not take them long.

The Lib Dems were always on a hiding to nothing. Never in a position to keep election promises they... damned if they sided with Conservatives or Labour as 'losing their integrity'... damned if they remained independent leaving an ineffective Conservative minority government floundering. And, if we get AV or PR, we risk having more of the same ad infinitum. Belgium is in terrible shape and because of a scrupulously fair voting system doesn't even have a government to take either action or the blame.

But Chil, Belgium hasn't even noticed it doesn't have a government - the bureaucrats keep it running without the need for politicians. I bet my car tax bill will still arrive this month, government or not.