Pressure on student fees starting to work?

[granted]

Clegg now saying that Lib Dems may abstain after all...

I suspect that virtually all Lib Dem MPs know that if they don't do a great big u-turn on this, they've lost their seats come the next election, and will then be entirely unelectable for at least a generation, probably ever.

They know that most of their voters are either students or middle-class parents of students - neither lot very enamoured of them now.

Don't forget Lib Dems, if you're reading this - not too late to change, and I'd have more respect for someone who came to their senses at the 11th hour, than someone who obstinately stuck to a course that was very, very wrong just so as not to be seen to be changing their mind.

Or to put it another way - you said one thing before the election and another straight after it. Doubt anyone will take any more offence at you switching your mind AGAIN - we kind of expect you to say stuff without thinking first, now.

Irrelevant but hilarious......I just heard David Cameron saying (with reference to the World Cup)..."We have a great team; David Beckham, Seb Coe, Me "

What a cock

The government is trying to impose 80% cuts to university funding and a trebling of university fees to £9000 per year. They are also scrapping Educational Maintenance Allowance- the money given to some A level students so that they can afford to support themselves at college. Many of you will know about these measures already.

I am writing from University College London's occupation; students at UCL feel so strongly about these changes that we are occupying a room in our university to pressure our management into condemning the cuts. Our occupation has support from the NUS, Billy Bragg, Polly Toynbee, Chomsky and many others. As has been reported in the media thousands of students have taken to the streets in protest. The changes will not affect us directly as our fees are set at £3000 but we are campaigning for the next generation of children who are faced with excessive levels of debt and under-funded universities.

We know that it's a lot easier for students to protest than people with families but we would love to involve you in our campaign. If you, like us, feel these cuts are unfair and want to be heard, send a picture like this one

ucloccupation.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/i'm-a-baby- not-a-cash-cow/
NB- please take out the space between 'baby-' and 'not' in the web address.
Feel free to use a different slogan.
Send the picture to [email protected].
We hope to march with you on future peaceful protests. Parents and Students- let's stand together!

Follow our campaign on www.ucloccupation.com

Best of luck - thank you for making the effort to campaign for all children.

I certainly hope to come along to one of the protests - hope the wather improves, though!!!

In the meantime, at least it's as cold for the police as it is for the protesters...

look at policeman. Nice

Lib Dems should vote against, not abstain!

I sense that the lib dems are wavering, if they abstain, what will happen, don't they need a majority vote to get it passed? I do know that a few will vote against it.

Notice reading down that Scaryteacher doesn't agree with the cuts but has the means to pay money on behalf of her DS, which is fantastic, not many parents are in that position. Do you think it would be a crime if some of your very able students (presume you are a teacher) are put off fulfilling their potential at Uni by the fee rises, and decide to go backpacking instead, whereas some of your mediocre students are keen to go because relatives will fund it or they will do a degree that they won't use?

Keep the pressure on.

The Lib Dems are stil trying to decide, ahead of next week's vote:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11904629

I liked this bit:

"More than 10 Lib Dem MPs, including former leaders Sir Menzies Campbell and Charles Kennedy, have indicated they will vote against the policy while others are considering abstaining."

Good on Menzies Campbell and Charles Kennedy - I trust the electorate will take note of PRECISELY which Lib Dem MPs stuck to their promises to constituents before the election, and which LIED, LIED, LIED to get into power, and then promptly ignored what the electorate had mandated them to do.

Lib Dem MPs - we, the voters, are watching you.

Vote for the rise in student fees, or abstain, and your seat is LOST come the next election, no two ways about it.

Enjoying the taste of power that comes from being in govt? Enjoy it - it won't last long, if you vote for rises in tuition fees.

Vince Cable has changed his mind again, has said he will vote for his own policy !

he's a tease

well it is panto season - "oh no he won't"

Something i read this morning suggested that was because the Top Lib Dem brass had failed to persuade the other LIb Dems to abstain, so a unified policy is out.

Instead, the top Lib Dems will vote 'for', and lots of the others will vote against/abstain.

The question is, of course, how many will vote against?

Let's guess how many want to keep their seats next time...

Notice reading down that Scaryteacher doesn't agree with the cuts but has the means to pay money on behalf of her DS, which is fantastic, not many parents are in that position. Do you think it would be a crime if some of your very able students (presume you are a teacher) are put off fulfilling their potential at Uni by the fee rises, and decide to go backpacking instead, whereas some of your mediocre students are keen to go because relatives will fund it or they will do a degree that they won't use?

I don't agree with the cuts, but the fees talked about are £6k and £9k only if you go to Oxbridge or perhaps the RG universities. I have always known that ds going to Uni would cost us and that he would not get much of a loan at all, so have known this was coming for a while. As a caveat to that, we are also looking at non UK options for Uni, as it is cheaper outside the UK.

I hope that part of the fee rise will be that it is incumbent upon Unis to have a bursary system (much as private schools do) to assist those who can't afford the fees and are bright enough to go. I hope that the fee rise will make people really think about going to uni, and not just drift into going because they can't think of what else to do. I do not believe that the 50% target that Labour set was right, as 50% of my students were not suitable to go to uni at that stage in their lives.

I think that what we are all having difficulty in getting our heads around is not the rise in fees; but the shifting of the onus from the parent to the student. If the loan are not means tested on family income, then it is up to the student if they want to do the degree and if they think it worth it financially in the long run. Bear in mind that no one should have to pay anything towards tuition before graduation.

My ds is an able student, and despite having assured him that we will pay fees for uni, he is even at 15 considering if he wants to go or not. It comes down in the end to how much the British public want to pay in tax. One could argue that the £6k fee is the same cost as a secondary school student, for which we pay through taxes. Are we willing to extend what we pay to fund university or should the burden of tertiary education fall on those who ultimately benefit from a higher income? Should someone on a lowish income pay more tax to fund my ds's uni fees?

It's scandalous that your DS, a bright child from a comfortable family should be reconsidering his options because this government won't fund his education by a resonable amount. My DD too is thinking about not going anymore, something she has been aiming for for the past 6 yrs. This is a student who was deemed G&T and put forward to NAGTY, grade wise did the best in her state school in this years GCSE's. I hate bragging about how capable she is but since all this she is stressed, not working hard enough and is now saying she wants to give up. I'm trying to keep her motivated and saying it's still worth it.

I know she won't have to pay anything up front etc but it still a crime to expect them to graduate with all this debt, still what do they care about kids in her situation, the richer ones will still apply.

I won't be able to help her out, we don't qualify for FSM (because I go out to work) so she won't get any free tuition.

I don't think that it is scandalous, it is concentrating his mind on the value of a degree and making him think about what he wants to read at Uni (if anything).

My db didn't go to Uni, but has a good career, and his employer has funded his MSc, without the need for an initial degree, so there are other routes to get where you want to be. If this weeds out those who go because they can't think what else to do, and then drop out, so costing someone else a place/nor repaying loans etc, then that is a good thing surely?

What's good about weeding out bright but poor students. For the course DD was thinking about there is no other route. Oh well, like I say who cares anyway as long as they are alright, so glad the protestors haven't taken that attitude. I was crying when I wrote my last post, thought what I posted would highlight that it's not only going to put off the ones who go because there is nothing else to do, and drink and party their loans away, but hey same old!

It's too emotive for me atm so I think I will forget about posting on mumsnet for a while.

It's not weeding out bright but poor students, as the fees have to be repaid after graduating, if you earn over £21k. That is the same if you are from a low, middle or high income family. Many families will not support their kids at uni irrespective of income as they would prefer them to work at post 18.

My dh has a degree and is senior to my db, who doesn't have a degree. My dh is senior, because he is older and got promoted earlier. The RN doesn't treat them differently though - db didn't need a degree for his branch of the RN, whilst dh did for his. That's what I mean by more than one route. My Dad started as a boy sailor and came up via the lower deck to achieve my db's current rank; he had 4 O levels, and never did A levels or a degree.

What does your daughter want to do? Are there employers who will sponsor her? What bursaries are available? Are there educational charities who will meet some of the fees? These are all routes that she could explore as well.

scaryteacher, of course it is weeding out poor but bright students and you are just fantastically, digustingly naive and smug if you can't see that.

Just because you can afford the fees so your DS doesn't have to worry doesn't mean that applies to everyone. You seem incapable of empathy - can you not see how overwhelming it is for an 18 year old who will never have had more than a minimum wage job in their lives to face debts of c 45K incl maintenance, at the start of their careers?

I just don't get how you can't see that.

christmaseve - I really feel for you and your daughter. I hope she can find a bursary to help her, or an employer who will sponsor her? Don't let her despair - strange things happen...

Granted - I am not disgustingly smug and naive at all; I fail to see how this weeds out poor but bright students. Before this, if your family wouldn't fill in the forms and support you (been there, done that, middle income family), you couldn't go to uni. Now, you can, as you take on the debt yourself.

There is no reason why students can't do paid work as many have always done during term time to supplement their income.

Yes, it's overwhelming for any 18 year old to be looking at that kind of debt, whatever background you come from, but it is an investment in their future.

I'll ask again, is it right that someone on a low wage should be paying more in tax to pay fees at uni for my ds, when by extending the mortgage and saving like mad for the next 3 years we can pay for him? It comes down in the end to the level of tax the country is willing to stump up for what is effectively a non universal benefit.

Yes, I can empathise that this is hard, but the writing was on the wall with this the minute that fees were introduced and accepted by the public. The only way they were ever going to go was up, and you are deluded and naive if you thought otherwise.

This is just a diversion from the argument - no-one is saying that someone on a low wage should be paying for people to go to univ - but the reality is that if the corporations and the very rich (ie the billionaires)coughed up the tax that they should be paying rather than avoiding we wouldn't have any problem with funding education - instead the condem gov have decided that while the rich get to keep their massive profits at the expense of everyone else the rest of us are struggling - it really is that simple!

And education benefits society as a whole - also in terms of being deluded and naive this fightback is not going to go away however much the rich or the ignorant wish it to.

Well said Kate, the ConDems will not listen to reason so I have we have a repeat of the Poll Tax resistance.

The LORD's have cut their own throats getting into bed with the likes of "call me Dave" and Gideon, they are just convenient fig leaves for the Tories

FFS LD's not LORD's

scaryteacher, those on low wages pobably pay no net tax, once you take into account tax credits, housing benefit etc.

But even imagining that they do, then yes, I do think they should contribute towards education in the same way as they contribute towards education for younger kids, even if they have none themselves currently or ever, in the same way as they contribute towards the N?HS, even if they're healthy. We live in a civilised society, where we don't expect children to work up chumneys to fund their own education or sick people to drag themselves out of bed when they're ill to pay for thir medical care. Even if we are ourselves childless and healthy.

Your underlying assumption is incredibly patronising and naive - just as the childless person may one day benefit from education for children as yet unborn, or for healthcare if/when they become ill, so the poor working person may one day themselves wish to study - poor working people do, you know!

Or maybe in your narrow world, education is only for nice middle class kids whose mums and dads 'extend the mortgage and save like mad', FFS.

As I said before, society as a whole benefits from an educated workforce, just as it does from emptied bins, old age pensions and all the other things we expect the low paid to pay for.

You wish to lock the low paid out of education forever, so don't pretend to be on thie side.

'Extend your mortgage' - oh pooor you, it must be so hard...

You couldn't make it up.

Incidentally, scaryteacher, given that the crux of your argument appears to be that fees are no big deal, since students can just get an extra job and save up, then why aren't you letting your soon stand on his own two feet?

Why aren't you saddling him with the level of debt you regard as just fine and dandy for everyone else's children?

Or is it another case of do-as-I-say, not do-as-I-do?

Hypocrite.

I don't agree with the fees, I think Uni should be free but only available to the brightest at 18 and offered free part-time to the over 25s.

What worries me most about the way they are doing this is that we clearly can't trust them - they say you don't pay until you earn £21k but they have shown they can change their minds at the drop of a hat and even if they don't, I can't remember seeing anything that says that number will rise with inflation or any other indicator.

christmaseve don't get too down-hearted. A degree is not a necessity. It has become a me-too qualification for Stepford people. Anyone with a bit of get-up-and-go can get a decent wage.
It was Labour who made degrees mandatory for Government jobs, that weren't really graduate standard to start off with, and created the 'arms race' in qualifications.
My DS is bright, like your DD, and can see that he doesn't need someone else's bit of paper to verify his IQ. A degree is not everything (as some graduates are finding out - apparently you now need a masters or a PhD or ...) and DS is seriously thinking that he could spend the tens of thousands of pounds on better things.