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Politics

Pressure on student fees starting to work?

77 replies

granted · 26/11/2010 21:18

Clegg now saying that Lib Dems may abstain after all...

I suspect that virtually all Lib Dem MPs know that if they don't do a great big u-turn on this, they've lost their seats come the next election, and will then be entirely unelectable for at least a generation, probably ever.

They know that most of their voters are either students or middle-class parents of students - neither lot very enamoured of them now.

Don't forget Lib Dems, if you're reading this - not too late to change, and I'd have more respect for someone who came to their senses at the 11th hour, than someone who obstinately stuck to a course that was very, very wrong just so as not to be seen to be changing their mind.

Or to put it another way - you said one thing before the election and another straight after it. Doubt anyone will take any more offence at you switching your mind AGAIN - we kind of expect you to say stuff without thinking first, now. Wink

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GiddyPickle · 07/12/2010 10:07

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purits · 07/12/2010 10:37

Spot on Giddy.
Yougsters need to think a bit more about the true value of a degree. At £9000+living expenses+foregone wage p.a. it is worth thinking about.
Ironically, it is the most able students who need degrees the least.

granted · 07/12/2010 10:38

As it stands, those who don't have a degree are currently locked out of virtually all the major professions and an awful lot of non-professional jobs.

Yes, you can get there in other ways in some cases, but it usually takes much longer and is much harder.

If your DC has, or may ever have, ambitions to go into virtually any professional carrer, then telling them they can do it just as well without a degree is simply not telling them the truth.

If all they want to do is make money, then starting your own business is free to all - you don't even need to have left school. And there are certainly jobs you can get that pay a lot more than the traditional professional jobs.

But not to make it clear from the start that many, many doors will be closed shut to you if you don't have a degree is just not being honest.

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GiddyPickle · 07/12/2010 10:47

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purits · 07/12/2010 10:56
granted · 07/12/2010 12:19

How do you into teaching without a degree? My brother qualified as an accountant by the work-based route (as did my mother, over 50 years ago, incidentally) - it took him, many, many years longer than it would have done via a degree.

As my earlier post said, it's possible - but a damn sight harder.

Also, you're less likely to get to the top - how many partners without degrees, say? Not a lot, I suspect.

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ilovecrisps · 07/12/2010 12:40

It's not shifting costs from parents to students, no one has mentioned knocking a bit off my tax to compensate.
Personally I think we have got our priorities wrong we can find money for 'junk' whether it be junk degrees or Quangos or whatever, aren't there anomolies in terms of funding for EU students/Scottish students too?
yet we can't find the money to educate future Doctors, Engineers etc

ilovecrisps · 07/12/2010 12:43

A relative of mine says the worst thing his parents did for him was encourage him to be a professional Shock

personally I'm encouraging my dcs towards banking/IT and property renovation!

granted · 07/12/2010 12:46

That's a fair enough choice, ilovecrisps.
But let's hope not everyone shares your choices, or we shall be short of decent professionals.

Or certainly ones who speak English - they'll all need to be imported.

PS Think your dc missed the boat on property renovation by some years...

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ilovecrisps · 07/12/2010 12:59

Not so sure about that will all need doing again in a few years Wink

old neighbour just pocketed over 300k tax free, tennant before me 100k suppose we could have taxed all of that and used it for Uni fees but we missed the boat there too!

He also says that the whole thing is going to swing round any time soon and a professional will be the thing to be!!

Where I am we seem to import all the workers anyway.

GiddyPickle · 07/12/2010 13:54

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sarah293 · 07/12/2010 14:27

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ilovecrisps · 07/12/2010 14:30

What's rafiography?

Rafia weaving? Grin

sarah293 · 07/12/2010 14:32

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ilovecrisps · 07/12/2010 14:36

fingerless gloves Grin

if I could knit I'd make some for you

sarah293 · 07/12/2010 14:41

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jackstarlightstarbright · 07/12/2010 15:03

I posted this on the other thread - but just in case some people on this one missed it:

What the NUS are proposing as an alternative to the increase in Tuition Fees.

I'm not judging here - but you should at least read it before dragging any young children on marches in the cold.

scaryteacher · 07/12/2010 15:08

You really take the biscuit Granted, and you extrapolate wildly from what has actually been written, not what is on the screen.

I would like all children to achieve the level of education of which they are capable; for some I teach, that will be low grade GCSEs, for others, PhDs. I would, in an ideal world, like this to be fully funded all the way through. However, we do not live in an ideal world, so someone will have to pay at some stage. Funds being limited, presumably it is better to fund fully to A levels, so the majority get an education; rather than all the way through to degree level, where only some will benefit. For those degrees that benefit society help could be provided; one could waive fees for medical degrees for example but with a fixed term return of service within the NHS. That is the crux of my argument. I fail to see how that is patronising or naive. I also don't think that everyone should go to Uni at 18; some may want to work and go later; some may not be capable of studying at that level until later. Some are not suitable to go, but are encouraged to do so because of the last Govts targets.

The suggestion of students getting jobs was so that they can supplement their income, not pay their fees. The ones I know use it to help subsidise food/beer/travel etc, not to pay fees, and I did not suggest that at all.

The principle of paying fees for University is well established now, and it's been obvious for a while that they would have to rise. Protesting now is a bit like bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

If the Govt has money to invest, I'd rather they set up apprenticeships and training so the 16-21 NEETs have opportunities. Paying people to learn a trade might be a better use of resources and the university route as I pointed out above, isn't for everyone.

As for supporting my son, we are lucky that we should be able to do it, (and given that dh will have had to retire by the time ds goes to uni, extending the mortgage will be an interesting exercise) but he will need to think long and hard about what he wants to do and where if he wants to study in the UK. There are unis in the Netherlands (Maastricht for example) that teach in English and charge far less than the UK does; I can't understand why people aren't researching what is on offer elsewhere, especially as employers value those who are not afraid to move and go abroad.

Given that we know roughly what the level of debt will be that he would incur, it makes sense to me to start saving hard now to meet it and to mitigate what he may have to borrow. I would like to read the small print of how this will all work though, before getting caught up in the furore about the whole thing, and then deciding the best way to work around it.

Incidentally, if I wanted to lock the poor out of education forever, as you mistakenly claim, then I would be doing myself and others out of teaching jobs. Education has opened many doors for those I've taught, including escape hatches for some, but it didn't always lead to uni.

GiddyPickle · 07/12/2010 15:09

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sarah293 · 07/12/2010 15:55

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scaryteacher · 07/12/2010 16:01

I can understand that in your case Riven; but in many cases, it is possible to go and study abroad for far less than the cost of a UK degree.

granted · 07/12/2010 21:48

scaryteacher, I find your last but one post far more reasonable; indeed, had you written that initially, I would not have felt the need to disagree.

Greater investment in non-academic routes seems eminently sensible, as does looking at non-UK options for study.

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granted · 07/12/2010 21:50

Re the OP - it appears thepressure is working:

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/8187692/Nick-Clegg-fails-to-persuade-MPs-to-walk-through-the-fire-over-tuition-fees.html

2 Tory MPs as well as an unspecified number of Lib Dem MPs will now be voting against the measures on Thurs.

Hurrah!

Nice to know there a still a few men (or women) of principle left in the House.

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claig · 07/12/2010 22:19

'Nice to know there are still a few men (or women) of principle left in the House.'

agree, that's what swayed me towards the Coalition

scaryteacher · 07/12/2010 22:25

Hopefully Granted you wouldn't have felt the need to be quite so rude on this thread and on the other one in which you refer to my pov as funny in a very sarcastic manner. I am not a hypocrite, but merely trying to look at this in a rational and practical manner, and explore the alternatives.

If you bother to read what is written as opposed to inferring/extrapolating what you think someone means, then perhaps you wouldn't be quite so trenchant in your labelling of people.