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Original poster

Britain's totally unfair tax system

136 replies

ivanhoe · 12/10/2010 10:58

Hi everybody, what im about to write maybe will surprise some of you, but nonetheless its all fact. So here goes.

Britain is a low income tax nation, hence increases in Council Tax.

Including Council tax, Britain has the most disproportionate tax system, compared to Western Europe.

The poor in Britain pay more "overall" taxation including Council tax and Income tax, in proportion to income, than the rich.

What do you think of that then ?

OP posts:
FellatioNelson · 13/10/2010 19:22

What do you consider to be an extreme amount of money to earn Ivanhoe? In my experience people usually say things like this in relation to salaries that are anything that's double what they are on - irrespective of what the person is actually being paid for.

If people like Alouiseg and her DH are writing cheques rather that paying tax as they earn, that means they are selling a service or a product, which other people are free to buy, or not buy. Whether the price for said product is 'extreme' or not is clearly a matter for the customer to decide, and if they are paying a great deal of tax then I guess the customer must feel he is getting value for money, or he'd take his custom elsewhere. Do you think there should be a limit on how many apples a greengrocer should be allowed to sell?

Either that or they are speculating to earn money, using their own capital. Again, if they are paying a great deal of tax then they are speculating correctly. I fail to see how that could be considered extreme - they don't extort it from anyone! They could just as easily lose money as make it.

scaryteacher · 13/10/2010 19:23

Ivanhoe you talk rot.

The state has some part to play, however it does not need to be as large and as monolithic as the last Govt made it in the UK, and as the EU is well on the way to becoming. I want people to be able to think for themselves and help themselves and decide for themselves, not be firmly clamped to the tit of the state. The state needs to provide Defence and Education and has a part to play in providing health care and support, but it does NOT need to intrude in to our lives. It is there as a safety net, not the raison d'etre of our lives. The state is there to serve me, not me to serve the state.

Why does it matter that the UK pays less in tax? So what?

'many among the British dont seem to be aware that the EU State plays a huge role re- investment and subsidy across Europe, and that Britain lags behind here, and has done since the 80s.' Why don't you realise that many people don't want the EU, can't see that it brings many benefits, and that overall it is a drag on the UK. Many countries cope without being in the EU. Look at Switzerland for example. We know it subsidises some in the EU - look at the French and the CAP. We contribute, but we seem to get bog all back.

'Because the EU has the Social Charter, and it has Proportional Representation.'

Social charter bogaloo; stifling legislation. As for PR - that works sooo well that Belgium hasn't had a govt (again) for months, and yet it still goes on merrily. That is because the state has overtaken the role of govt. The Belgians are in shock that we got a coalition in 5 days, and they have now been wrangling since June I think for the second time in 18 months. Because there is PR and thus coalition govt here, the govt seems like humpty dumpty, constantly having a great fall.

ColdComfortFarm · 13/10/2010 19:40

This thread is so funny. Someone comes on here with their really strange //// thingies (and doesn't answer people asking wtf they are supposed to be) and makes huge statements about 'Europe', which are directly, concisely and accurately contradicted in some detail by people actually living in 'Europe' (ie several different countries) who point out they DO play local taxes, and have, by the sound of it, no better services than I do, yet the OP carries on saying 'end of' like a demented Big Brother contestant. It's marvellous - do carry on!

FellatioNelson · 13/10/2010 19:45

Yes, I noticed that. IME people who say 'end of' as the clincher to all their arguments rarely have an intellectual grasp on anything much of note.Hmm

ColdComfortFarm · 13/10/2010 19:49

Yeah, like, end of

Original poster
ivanhoe · 13/10/2010 19:50

"This thread is so funny. Someone comes on here with their really strange //// thingies (and doesn't answer people asking wtf they are supposed to be) and makes huge statements about 'Europe', which are directly, concisely and accurately contradicted in some detail by people actually living in 'Europe' (ie several different countries) who point out they DO play local taxes, and have, by the sound of it, no better services than I do, yet the OP carries on saying 'end of' like a demented Big Brother contestant. It's marvellous - do carry on!"

I am aware that European's pay local taxation, but they dont have our unjust council tax system that isnt based on ability to pay, and the EU work force pay higher income tax than we do.

Also their state pensions are higher.

I wonder how long you EU living Brit's have been living in your various migrated to EU countries ?

OP posts:
Alouiseg · 13/10/2010 19:54

Look, you've really got a bug about council tax and you are clearly not winning friends and influencing people here.

Write to your MP who might actually be able to do something. We have neither the inclination or the power.

ColdComfortFarm · 13/10/2010 19:58

I wish you well with your 'everyone must pay more tax' idea. Just don't expect folks to take to the street with 'what do we want? Higher tax bills'as their motto, that's all. just saying. End of.

Original poster
ivanhoe · 13/10/2010 20:00

scaryteacher, Oh brother have you been brainwashed, and I wouldnt be surprised if you were a Tory, mind you thats just a guess.

The role of the state should provide our services, our pensions, our health care, our post offices, and our social housing.

OP posts:
Alouiseg · 13/10/2010 20:03

Actually the state shouldn't provide all those things for everybody.

They should provide them for people who are unable to provide for themselves.

Unable, not unwilling!

FellatioNelson · 13/10/2010 20:04

What do you think ability to pay is all about then? If you rely on benefits or are a single adult dweller you get subsidies on CT. Everyone else pays according to the value of their home, so I would have though you of all people would agree that people in 'expensive' houses are 'richer' than people in cheaper houses, as a given.

Therefore they pay more based on their ability to pay. I'll be the first person to say this system is flawed, but I don't get how you think that people who are 'least able to pay' are penalised here? Are you saying that a single person who has no income and only modest savings but lives in a 2 million pound house should pay a smaller amount based on their income than someone with a £30k income but a big mortgage on a modest home, and three young children to support should pay more based on their 'ability' to pay? I'm not saying either is right or wrong - I just want to know what you think is a 'fair' way to set local tax.

ColdComfortFarm · 13/10/2010 20:19

Good point. the idea that the value of your house has no relation to your wealth (or lack of it) is nonsense. And as others have said, those on low incomes get discounts on council tax. The poll tax is history.

Original poster
ivanhoe · 13/10/2010 22:44

"Good point. the idea that the value of your house has no relation to your wealth (or lack of it) is nonsense. And as others have said, those on low incomes get discounts on council tax. The poll tax is history."

Both poll tax and council tax, were, and are, not based on the ability to pay

Those on low incomes can only get a discount of council tax throught being means tested.

Taxation in any form should be based on ability to pay, if not it will effect the poor disproportionately.

Income tax is based on ability to pay.

Council tax isnt.

OP posts:
ColdComfortFarm · 13/10/2010 22:47

Except it is, on account of discounts being given to people on low incomes! You can't pretend they don't exist and base your argument on that. I think you have to face up to the fact that most people do not think this is an evil injustice worth manning the barricades for. Neither do they, on the whole, want to swap council tax for big hikes in income tax. If you don't like paying council tax on your big expensive house, move to a smaller, less expensive one. Easy.

scaryteacher · 13/10/2010 22:48

'scaryteacher, Oh brother have you been brainwashed, and I wouldnt be surprised if you were a Tory, mind you thats just a guess'

Having done 10 years as a Community Charge Officer/Council Tax officer I would imagine I am better qualified than you on the ins and outs of how it all works Ivanhoe. It is based on ability to pay as there is Council Tax benefit for those who can't. Arrangements can also be made according to income to spread payments if people are in difficulty. This is all set out in the LGFA.

I am not an 'EU living Brit', but a Brit living in Belgium. I have been here for 4 years now, but my dh is paid by HMG, as he works in the UK Military. In fact, Ivanhoe, all Brits are 'EU living Brits', as the UK (Britain) sadly is part of the EU.

As far as I am aware the cadastral that is paid here for local taxes is done on the width of the house in some cases, so many houses are tall and narrow. That seems less logical than CTAX.

I think the only brainwashed person here is you Ivanhoe; a low tax economy gets more tax revenue in, so more is available to provide essential services for those who need them. As Porto explained to you, health care provision on Belgium is a mix of state and private insurance, and the Health system works much better and thoroughly than the NHS does. The EU propaganda has well and truly sucked you in.

Original poster
ivanhoe · 14/10/2010 11:49

"I think the only brainwashed person here is you Ivanhoe; a low tax economy gets more tax revenue in, so more is available to provide essential services for those who need them. As Porto explained to you, health care provision on Belgium is a mix of state and private insurance, and the Health system works much better and thoroughly than the NHS does. The EU propaganda has well and truly sucked you in."

Ah, the usual Tory mantra that has messed up Britain totally.

You believe what you "want" to believe.

OP posts:
scaryteacher · 14/10/2010 12:09

Remind me who was in Government from 1997-2010? Not the Tories - the Labour party and they did such a great job they have been voted out and the Tories (yet again) are clearing up the mess they left.

I believe the evidence in front of me Ivanhoe; I'm not quite sue what you believe.

pagwatch · 14/10/2010 12:15

lol at Ivanhoe - anyone who won't criticise the currenttax system is a stupid tory. But has failed to notice that current tax suituation is post a long term labour govt.

isthe purpose of the thread to make labour supporters look like wankers////

Original poster
ivanhoe · 14/10/2010 12:47

"Remind me who was in Government from 1997-2010? Not the Tories - the Labour party and they did such a great job they have been voted out and the Tories (yet again) are clearing up the mess they left."

Here we go again.

New Labour 1997- 2010 were not a "Labour" Government.

New Labour came to power and embraced the Thatcherite agenda in taxation, in pensions, in privatisation, the entire unbridled free market.

OP posts:
Original poster
ivanhoe · 14/10/2010 12:49

"a low tax economy gets more tax revenue".

That's what the Tories would like us all to believe.

Naturally this attitude suits the greedy and selfish.

OP posts:
FellatioNelson · 14/10/2010 12:57

'New Labour was not a Labour government'

Wow. I heard some desperately poor excuses for the Blair/Brown era in my time, but that one deserves a medal.

Alouiseg · 14/10/2010 12:58

Ivanhoe, have you heard of the Laffer Curve? It doesn't sound as if you have!

FellatioNelson · 14/10/2010 12:58

have heard - sorry.

huddspur · 14/10/2010 12:59

ivanhoe there is a point in tax rates where if you raise taxes higher then you get less tax revenue. Its is shown on the laffer curve.

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