How to advise newly-Christian friend who thinks that only Christians can go to heaven

[poguemahone]

A friend has recently become a Christian, and is very happy and excited about the whole thing.

She's having a bit of a tough time, however as she's getting into conflicts with people who don't share her beliefs. In particular she holds that only Christians will go to heaven. She's traveling in a non-Christian country so I can only imagine upset for everyone concerned.

We knew each other years ago when she was a lovely sweet girl but a bit wild, and she recently sought me out, probably because I've always been a Christian. She's keen to pick my brains on things like this, and I'm feeling a bit of pressure to get the advice right.

I've told her that:

• I believe people of all religion and none can go to heaven if they're good people.
• Although Christianity makes utter sense to me intellectually and emotionally, not everyone has been exposed to the same (cultural) background as me.
• God's fair if nothing else, so for example to discount millions of people who've never heard of Jesus, would just be unfair. (Likewise for people who've not seen great examples of Christians, who're happy with their own religion etc)

But she's asking for more info and I'm really no expert on this. Any advice?

You may be content to insult all the non christians here as a group and then walk away, but I find that unpleasant. Especially as the christians here have questioned the basic structure of each others 'christianity' without incurring your anger.

I think I found what upset you and if you find it unpleasant and abusive to see people examining your 'proofs' then you are perhaps in the wrong place.

Wow.... thanks Northern Lurker! That's certainly most of the ones I was going for.
Like I say, I would be surprised if many of the lovely ladies (and poss gents) who are shelling out these comment would be prepared to say them to a friend's face.

I wouldn't say the things I've said here to a friend face to face, because I tend not to befriend religious fundamentalists or superstitious people, I find their conversational range frustratingly limited

but I certainly would express my views in similar terms to Christians in the context of a debate, yes - and have done so.

How have I insulted all the non-Christians as a group and walked away? I have no desire to insult whatsoever. If you find what I'm saying unpleasant then I am sorry, but none of it has been meant as personal attack to anyone posting on here, which I'm not sure everyone posting on here could honestly say.

'I tend not to befriend religious fundamentalists or superstitious people, I find their conversational range frustratingly limited'

Oh nice Greensleeves - great generalisations there! Some of my best friends aren't christians you know We struggle though, maintaining a semblance of a conversation...

I meant what I said. I don't befriend people have hold views as dogmatic and illogical as those expressed by the Christians on this thread. I would NEVER find common ground with somebody who thought it was OK to pray for a person while knowing they wouldn't welcome it

I have had friends who are more moderate Christians and who have a slightly wider discursive range - but really, it's quite difficult to be really close to somebody who believes in things I think are bonkers, unhealthy and damaging.

That whole 'how dare you pray for me I don't believe in it' thing always puzzles me. If you don't believe in it then where's the problem - how can it touch you? If we're praying to a God who doesn't exist then what effect does our intentions have on you? Unless of course there's a part of you that does believe and therefore being prayed for is a real threat in some way?

I certainly hope there are people praying for me - because I do believe and I know those prayers will touch my life in ways I can't even begin to comprehend.

no, it's not a threat, it's an insult. It's ignorant and irritating.

Yes, praying for someone when you know they wouldn't welcome it and have actively asked you not to doesn't seem very "Christian"...

It smacks of "well, I know what's best for you and am going to do it anyway." Like a parent with an errant child.

I'll try to express better why it irks me.

It's blatantly disrespectful of MY beliefs for one - I am not a lost soul in need of succour and my spiritual life does not simply consist of a vacuum where Christianity ought to be

and it's intrusive - it's on a par with being bought a tin of SMA by a MIL who knows damn well you are planning to breastfeed. There will always be people who say "oh, she meant well, where's the harm, just ebay it" - but it would piss me off.

When someone says they will pray for me or a member of my family (as they have done, on occasion) I usually try to be diplomatic but firm - I say something like "Well, I don't believe in that, but I appreciate your kind thoughts."

(It's easier to do if they are praying for someone who is ill, because you can "spin" it as "kind thoughts" and sound grateful. Not so easy if they are praying for you to give up your wicked ways and see the light.)

On a plus note, it's been a bloody long time since anybody IRL has declared their intention to pray for me

[damned in perpetuity]

[whiff of singed flesh]

I would say nothing on here that I wouldn't say to Christian friends in real life. And my one practising Muslim friend. And, actually, to my friend who is a white witch and the one who believes in crystal healing.

Life, humanity and the wonder that is science and nature is quite awe-inspiring and transcendent enough for me. I see no reason to add mythology to the mix.

Greensleeves -o you do have beliefs then - thought that was dogmatic, superstitous and intellectually limited?

As a practicing christian I believe I have a relationship with God which allows me to bring to him those things which give me joy or worries or anger - every area of my life is avilable and open between my Father and me - that's what the sacrifice of Christ achieved for me - therefore should I be worried about somebody (or glad about something but it is usually requests tbh - very selfish , demanding lot we are) I will take it to God in prayer. Because I do believe it's best and you may not share that belief but surely I am entitled to have my belief in prayer respected? When it impinges on you not one bit as far as you know - it just 'irritates' you?

you have every right to pray for yourself and anyone else who is happy for you to do so.

Did I say ALL belief was superstitious and dogmatic? I don't think I did.

But what about people I don't know - may I not pray for them lest I be offending them by doing something that they don't believe in and don't know I'm doing anyway?

Re dogma etc I certainly got the impression you felt belief in a higher power was dogma etc - therefore in line with that I assumed you had no beliefs.

I understand why you are puzzled by the objection to prayer. You will notice that I politely didn't object to it at the time. I think I've been reasonably polite on this thread considering.

Generally a christian sees an offer to pray as a helpful thing from a member of a big happy family of 'nice' people.

But to me that's not how it looks at all. I can't speak for others, but in my opinion religion is an unhealthy and degrading practice for the individual and a positive danger to society.

While I wouldn't object to people practicing it I feel most strongly that society and other people's children need protecting from it. I see a supersitition that centers around and uses images of, a tortured/murdered man. That encourages belief without question.

In the case of christianity there are many different kinds as this thread has shown. With mutually exclusive beliefs I might add. Some are less of a threat than others and of course many individuals are themselves nice people. However by adopting the christian label they all in effect lend support and credibility to the practices of the larger group and the organised religions.

Depending on which flavour we are speaking of that can mean indoctrination of the young and vulnerable. Corruption and child abuse, political interference in what we still call a democracy. Constant attempts to limit the freedoms of those who are not members of their cult. Attempts to convert us with threats. Some here may not believe in hell, but many do and having someone tell me that I must do what their cult demands or my children will be tortured for eternity is not acceptable or decent behaviour. The fact that I do not believe hell exists does not change the nature of the threat not the distaste I hold for those who would say such things.

Am I getting across how it looks to me? I'd no more want a prayer to help me get through the day then I'd appreciate the offer of a needle from a drug addict.

I don't say this to people in RL unless they ask (which is more than many christians can say), but if they do I am completely open about my position.

that's rather a large assumption but sadly not untypical of Christians. As I said, my beliefs don't consist simply of the absence of YOUR beliefs. Christian dogma does tend to encourage earthworm vision, unfortunately.

Praying for somebody when you know very well that they don't share your beliefs and don't want your prayers is disrespectful, patronid=sing and rude.

How would the Christians on here feel if they knew that a devout muslim was praying for their conversion? Or a witch was casting spells for them?

they will obviously say that it wouldn't bother them a whit, and they would be lying

if you think I'm going to hang my beliefs out like a bride's bedsheet to be picked over by the hardcore God Squad on this thread, Northernlurker, you've another think coming. I'm an atheist, not an idiot.

So let me get this straight - my christian beliefs make me dangerous and offensive and at the same time having 'earth worm vision'. I'm patronising, rude, disrespectful, intrusive, irritating and smug.

My following of the christian faith calls for no respect from you but I am expected to respect your lack of belief or be of course dangerous, offensive, blind, irritating, patronising, rude, disrespectful, intrusive and smug. Which I am anyway because of my faith - apparently? Whatever I do with it?

Well I am very pleased to live in this country because my brothers and sisters in Christ across the world get a lot worse than that thrown at them because they believe.

You personally may not be all of those at once (or indeed any)

Though once again by saying 'brothers and sisters in Christ' as though all on the same team you associate yourself with some that may be worse.

Only if you are dogmatic and extremist and insist on praying for people who don't want it, Northernlurker. Not all Christians, everywhere, all the time.

I did say that before though.

There's a lot to take in here, ranging from eminently sensible advice to pronouncements from those of you who may be mistaking this for your monthly meeting of the Ignorant Tight-Ass Club.

Someone asked if I could back up my position with scripture. I can't - I came on here saying I was rubbish at that sort of thing and could anyone help me advise my friend. And whilst I know from taking the Bible as a whole that God is love, I fear that you can pick a verse from the Bible to back up just about anything. Bartlett, anyone? (Yes, I did steal that Tight-Ass line )

How would the Christians on here feel if they knew that a devout muslim was praying for their conversion? Or a witch was casting spells for them?