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Philosophy/religion

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How to advise newly-Christian friend who thinks that only Christians can go to heaven

312 replies

poguemahone · 12/07/2009 20:34

A friend has recently become a Christian, and is very happy and excited about the whole thing.

She's having a bit of a tough time, however as she's getting into conflicts with people who don't share her beliefs. In particular she holds that only Christians will go to heaven. She's traveling in a non-Christian country so I can only imagine upset for everyone concerned.

We knew each other years ago when she was a lovely sweet girl but a bit wild, and she recently sought me out, probably because I've always been a Christian. She's keen to pick my brains on things like this, and I'm feeling a bit of pressure to get the advice right.

I've told her that:

  • I believe people of all religion and none can go to heaven if they're good people.
  • Although Christianity makes utter sense to me intellectually and emotionally, not everyone has been exposed to the same (cultural) background as me.
  • God's fair if nothing else, so for example to discount millions of people who've never heard of Jesus, would just be unfair. (Likewise for people who've not seen great examples of Christians, who're happy with their own religion etc)

But she's asking for more info and I'm really no expert on this. Any advice?

OP posts:
liath · 15/07/2009 09:14

I have taken a similar path to atheism to catinthehat.

I'm afraid I am with Richard Dawkins on the indoctrination of children. I believe we have no right to tell children what to believe and that teaching children to be religious is wrong. Children by their nature will soak up anything we tell them - tooth fairy, father christmas, God, witches etc. I won't be telling my chidren that there is no God but will try to bring them up to be open minded.

I have serious issues with Father Christmas - a friend accused me of "destroying the magic of childhood". Do we have to weave a tissue of lies to make childhood magic?

traceface · 15/07/2009 09:48

good morning!
seeker, Unquietdad, greensleves - sorry I couldn't respond to your plea for a serios christian to join you last night...my dd2 is still a 2-feeds-a-night girl so if I don't force myself to turn my computer off I really would be even more of a sleep-deprived zombie than I am! But I'm here now while she naps .
I'm 'serious' in the sense of my Faith being the very basis of my life and the way I live it, not in the sense of being dull and having no fun!
In answer to the question about others praying for me or casting white spells...
If a someone of another faith said they were praying for me, I would, like Lemoniee, appreciate the sentiment - that this person who believes they can bring me before their god to ask him/her/it to help me clearly cares about me and is wanting to do something proactive to help me. I would thank them. As for white spells - I guess the sentiment is the same - a polite and genuinely appreciative thank you, although perhaps with a "it's not what I believe to be true but thank you anyway" kind of slant.
In fact on my post-natal thread - where I have met the most wonderfully supportive group of ladies - someone shared her belief in 'white light' as a means of supporting people (sending a little white light/ wishing white light on them). To me 'white light' as a healing/helpful/whatever thing is as real as the tooth fairy BUT the lady who mentioned it is immensely kind and supportive and funny and sensitive and I love the fact that that she wants to share something out of love/compassion for the rest of us. Some of the thread ladies are Christian, some not - I have no idea what most of their beliefs are - but I am not aware of anyone being offended by her offer of 'white light' or my (and others') offer of prayer. And we are a pretty honest bunch who I think would tell each other if we'd been upset by something.
Also I have had many experiences in my life since being a Christian (since about age 17) when people who are not Christian have come top me to ask me to pray for them. They have the mindset that even though they don't believe it, they are desparate enough to want me to do what I can to help them (as well as any practical help obviously). I would always say yes. So there are so many kinds of people among us of whatever faith and background, and probably as many different reactions to the thought of being prayed for - I think the best route is to offer and see what response you get!

TAFKAtheUrbanDryad · 15/07/2009 09:51

trace - would you still pray for someone even though they asked you not to?

UnquietDad · 15/07/2009 09:57

All these cries of "christianophobia" (is that even a real word?) and "ridicule" are a little pathetic. If your god existed I'm sure he could more than take a little ribbing.

traceface · 15/07/2009 10:03

as for children...
I have 2 girls who come to church with me every week. We had the oldest (5yrs) 'dedicated' when she was about 2. This was a bit in the normal sunday service when we stood and thanked God for blessing us with her and keeping us safe (we both nearly died when I had her). We said before God and the church that we would bring her up in a Christian household and would pray for her. I believe that is as far as we can go. If she wants to become a Christian herself it is her choice, and as I said before, we can't convert her anyway - she has to encounter God herself. When dd2 is a bit older (and we get round to it!) we will do the same kind of thing with her. I don't think that bringing her up to experience my faith is brainwashing or damaging her. That is obviously because I believe Jesus to be true so for me, anything other than helping her to reach a point where she can make that choice would be wrong! As for the effect on her - well right now she loves church and sunday school - she has friends there and loves dancing to the worship songs, she is learning about Jesus and his life but also about sharing and caring for others and many many other 'good' values which are helpful in all settings in society. In fact there is a lady in our church who has started coming JUST because she believes that that is where her children will learn morals - she's not even a christian!!

traceface · 15/07/2009 10:06

unquietdad - I don't think the issue is offending God - I think it's more that there are real people behind these posts and some of the comments are quite hurtful to those posting - not to God. Although I'm sure it upsets God but only because he loves you so much!

UnquietDad · 15/07/2009 10:08

Well, an imaginary being doesn't "love" me, but thanks for the thought.

Often the religious don't expect to be challenged. What they call "insulting" language is really only often the cut-and-thrust of normal debate - they are just shocked by it because they haven't been exposed to it.

traceface · 15/07/2009 10:12

Tafka - if I was with you and you asked me not to pray for you I would respect that and certainly wouldn't lay hands on you and start talking to God right there and then. But... if I'm honest I guess I would add you into my normal prayer life - I guess I talk to God a lot in my head through the day and chat to him about the things of the day, so any encounter, conversation whatever usually ends up in my prayers! Would that be wrong in your opinion?

traceface · 15/07/2009 10:20

dd2 awake...hopefully back later

TAFKAtheUrbanDryad · 15/07/2009 10:25

Trace - if i had specifically asked you not to pray for me, you still would? Obviously I'm not just talking about there and then, or "laying on of hands" which would be a gross intrusion of personal space.

If you still prayed for me, in your everyday conversations with God, when I'd asked you not to, then yes - I would feel that you had disregarded my feelings on the matter and just blithely assumed you knew what was best for me, which I find deeply patronising and un-Christian in the extreme. If someone asks you not to pray for them, you should respect their wishes.

Personally, I can think of nothing more patronising than someone saying, "I'll pray for you," or, "I'll remember you in my prayers." And I cringe when I think that I used to say it - no wonder I didn't have any friends in upper school.

lemoniee · 15/07/2009 12:21

Unquietdad I knew I made up 'christianophobia' on the spot last night but now you made me check and yes there is such word ! It's got an entry on wikipidia and was used in some newspaper articles.

I only objected to unnecessary inflammatory language like ' christian idiots' and ' moony-eyed evangelists', 'dogmatic bilge', 'projectile vomiting' . Without such lingo, anyone is welcome to shred my beliefs to pieces, I would be interested in their point of view.

I'm pleased to see the debate going along nicely this morning without any insults.
Am really enjoying the posts today. Great one from catitainahatita.

I think I personally WOULD stop praying for someone if they specifically asked me to, maybe with an exception of my debt ridden alcoholic dad.
But then, no one ever asked me not to pray. I only ever said 'I would pray for you ' to fellow christians , I pray for non believers but don't tell them this so no problem

lemoniee · 15/07/2009 12:40

Interesting how some atheists said that they are so glad they abandoned christianity/never believed as a reaction to this thread.

I've had exactly opposite experience. My faith was a bit wobbly recently but this debate made me realize how lucky and happy I am to have my faith and all the wobbliness is well gone.

So no converts on either side seemingly but people reassured in their own choices.

onagar · 15/07/2009 13:24

lemoniee, you asked me if I would use social services to snatch your boys to stop you exposing them to christianity. That's why I made my post 'other people's children' meaning not yours. You have the right to teach them what you like. Surely I was clear on that?

I would fight for your right to believe what you want. I just don't want it pushed onto the rest of us. That means schools would be for teaching geography, history and science etc, but churches and homes would be for teaching about your religion.
Of course schools would teach that religion exists just as they teach that political systems exist. They would just not teach that they are fact.

What do you fear so much anyway ? Shouldn't you rather worry about violent gang culture, knife crime, identity fraudsters, handbag snatchers or lying polititians , rather than a happy clappy love thy neighbour bunch of people ( like me ) who very occasionally might happen to approach you with conversion attempt ( wanting to share ) and in absolutely most cases retire after your polite no thank you. WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL ?>>

Firstly I do fear those other things. I also happen to think that some of the failings of our society are aggravated by the concept that god will deal with it or that it doesn't matter because all the good people will go to heaven eventually anyway. I don't blame religion for it all though obviously.

As for 'happy clappy' I explained in my last post that by adopting the christian label as though it were one big group, even the gentler, less harmful branches of christianity lend credibility and support to the other kinds and to organised churches which are not happy clappy. When you defend christianity and don't specify a particular group you are in effect standing up for the abuses of children, the smuggling of peadophiles out of the country to protect them from the law. The campaigns to stop those in other countries using condoms to protect themselves from AIDS, the homophobia and so on.

Are you unaware that there are laws in this country that the christian god must be worshipped in our schools? Did you not know that bishops have the right to sit in the house of lords and rule us?

Books and plays are forbidden if they offend your god. It should be enough that you don't read or watch them, but your chrisitianity demands the right to tell US not to. Your chrisitianity isn't interested in live and let live, but in power over the rest of us.

Your christianity puts signs up saying "obey god or die horribly" Your people knock on doors saying it.

(If you don't support all that then I suggest you stop defending christianity as a whole and instead defend whatever subgroup you are in)

It doesn't matter that I don't believe it. If I believed that one day all children will be raped and murdered can I knock on your door and tell you about it? maybe you'd let me leave some leaflets about it for your kids to read? How about if I bypass you and give them to your kids at school to stop you from blocking their right to hear the 'word' Surely it sounds crazy and offensive put like that?

I am not an atheist that 'knows there is no such thing' We all try to explain this, but it's hard without examples and for the example to work it has to be something no one would believe in, so bear with me.

I doubt you have a belief that 'rubber ducks are aliens' so think about your feelings about the concept that 'rubber ducks are aliens' for moment. I guess you don't have any feelings about it at all do you. It's just a meaningless phrase, right?

So you wouldn't accept it if I said "but you must believe rubber ducks are aliens until you can find proof they are NOT" would you. Surely you'd say "give me one good reason why I'd think they were in the first place!"

That is my position. I've been offered no reason whatsoever to believe in god. There is no evidence at all. I don't mean not enough to convince a court. I mean zero, none whatsoever. So it goes in the pile of all the things that I have no reason whatsoever to think might be true.

In the meantime If I see that UK schools must be taught that rubber ducks are aliens I will be annoyed. Especially so if they are told that the rubber ducks don't want us to have anything to do with those gay people etc.

traceface · 15/07/2009 13:40
traceface · 15/07/2009 13:47

Actually I'll just quickly stop to add a little - this has really made me think about praying for people! Seriously I'd never imagined that someone would be offended so thank you for opening my eyes to that. I guess as a Christian I often find it hard to separate my thoughts from my prayers - I know that sounds crazy but I honestly spend a lot of head space time chatting away to God whilst cleaning, feeding, ironing...so if I said I would not pray for someone I have a feeling a might accidently pray for them when my thoughts spill out to God. I don't suppose I'm alone in this (although I admit I may have just made myself out to look like a fruit cake!). Perhaps I need to pray about whether I ought to pray for people or not - see what God says! Seriously though - you really have made me think about this issue - so thanks

lemoniee · 15/07/2009 13:52

I absolutely believe that my children are happier ( than they would be otherwise ) directly as a result of me being a committed christian.

I know exactly how I made some good choices in my life, what influenced them, so I can say with no doubt - the happiness of our family is certainly attributed to me and my husband trying hard to live by the principles of my christian faith (with God's help I believe).

Without faith I am sure my marriage would have been broken now ( great difficulties brought upon by me marrying and moving to different country/ culture), instead it is now thriving, simply fab.
Without faith I would be a twisted bitter woman ,if I was still here at all, after losing my five babies. Consumed by anger and frustration as some died unnecessarily due to doctors' neglect/ incompetence. All feelings worked out , absolutely thanks to my christian beliefs. I am generally a very happy human being.

When I say I had marriage difficulties, my children never saw any slanging shouting matches between us as there were never any , tears discussions out of their sight, yes, but no ugly scenes. This too I atribute to me and my husband being brought up christians.

We don't smoke, binge drink ,swear, are patient and understanding towards our children, open minded to their choices as well , in a way that I would never dream of rejecting them or even be off standish if they make choices I wouldn't agree with.

Two of my three children are teenagers now and they are happy well behaved boys with plenty of friends, christian and not , constantly praised by school for their politeness and hard work. They are both fun loving outgoing teens enjoying life.
They talk about afterlife with clear certainty, are not scared of death.I mean when it comes up in discussion, after watching some sad story in the news for example . I don't mean they preach to everyone or are obsessive about it in any way.

Where is the harm in our christian ways ? What is so bad about our lifestyle that some consider it a threat to society and bad for the children ?

Disclaimer. I know some might read this post as me boasting , look at my fab family but believe me I don't want to be smug, I am not . Would never say the above in RL , I'm only saying all this to illustrate why I value my beliefs that definitely shaped our family history and who we all are today.

BunnyLebowski · 15/07/2009 14:02

lemoniee can I start my saying I'm very sorry about the babies you lost - that must have been awful

And you're not boasting. You have a happy marriage and good kids. That's fantastic.

But it seems very blind to attribute these things to being a christian. Can you not accept that it is perfectly possible to have a life full of these wonderful things without it being because you're religious?

I know it is because DP and I are atheists and we have all the things you've just mentioned. We are good people. And being a good person isn't the sole privilege of believers.

abraid · 15/07/2009 14:13

'When you defend christianity and don't specify a particular group you are in effect standing up for the abuses of children'

If I defend Islam dos that mean I'm standing up for the Taliban?

CarrieBo · 15/07/2009 14:14

onagar I'm a Jesus loving practicing Christian and I agree with you on many points - acts of worship in schools (why should non-Christian teachers have to lead this?!), the connection between state and church.

Just as you will find people who are culturally muslim, or culturally jewish, but don't actually practice their religion, you will also find people who are culturally christian and call themselves Christian, but their religion is possibly by virtue of having been christened, or having a belief in God because they went to sunday school. This is very different to being a practicing, Jesus following Christian.

And if i found out a muslim or white witch was praying for me...I'd pray harder! The bible tells us there's a spiritual realm, there are angels and demons, and Jesus says that 'he who isn't for me is against me'. Prayer is how you do battle in the spiritual realm.

CarrieBo · 15/07/2009 14:18

Going back to the OP, I think you should advise your friend to get to know people, to really love them, and share her faith out of love and not just preach willy-nilly. HTH!

I would be so interested to see the reaction if this debate was about muslims, I suspect MNHQ would be being interviewed by the Daily Mail as we speak about allowing the sort of comments that have been made here. Why do people think Christians are fair game for verbal abuse?

saintlydamemrsturnip · 15/07/2009 14:19

I was a christian until I ran into this one aged about 13 or 14. I couldn't believe it but the vicar insisted the only way was through Jesus and if you weren't a christian then you were stuffed. So I stopped believing there and then - it made zero sense to me and still doesn't.

I have had many people pray for me (well for my son who is severely disabled). I'm quite happy for them to do so and am touched rather than offended.

Ds2 likes religion (he's 7) which he's picked up from school. I have no issue with this, and assume he will make up his own mind when he's older. He asked to join Boys Brigade with his friend and we have let him - have no idea whether he will be religious or not, but it will be his choice. Will see what happens with ds3.

lemoniee · 15/07/2009 14:25

Onegar, I read your post , acknowledge your answers to my questions .

I wish I could try and answer at least some of yours( loads ! ), I would love to address some of the issues you raised, very valid some and trust me we don't disagree on everything, I actually share some of your views expressed in the last post.
I just truly honestly cannot as have to leave this thread or rather have to summon great willpower to force myself back into the RL.
It is 2 pm and things are starting to show signs of neglect , serious if I don't go soon enough. I badly missed out on sleep last night because of this thread. Am slow typer so it really eats my time.

I might lurk here for a moment or two over next few days but am debating if I could withstand the temptation to post then and I really really can't afford it. Major holiday in two weeks time

Just quick say that for me the evidence Christ is alive and well is found in countless testimonies from millions of people of different denominations of truly miraculous events in their lives , lots documented in great detail and confirmed by others. I refer to physical and spiritual miracles . Anyone who did a thorough research on even some of them, would have a job to stay in denial.

UnquietDad · 15/07/2009 14:34

I believe Jesus Christ existed. But he is now dead.

Not saying he wasn't an inspiring teacher with a lot to say, and not saying his "ways" (which are not exclusive to him) don't have a lot going for them. Love they neighbour. basically, be nice to people. I can do that.

But he's brown bread. Has been for 2000 years. Sorry.

People's "testimonies" are meaningless, because they are all coming from a standpoint of believing - they will immediately discount any rational explanations for the "miracles".

lemoniee · 15/07/2009 14:58

Oh no , I have to answer bunnylebowski very quickly.
Thank you for your kind words.
I do believe you can have a good family and great kids as atheist, I do. But it's harder and more exposed to all kinds of traps, so credits to you.

But I know I wouldn't have these without christian faith. I know myself, my weaknesess , how I respond to things and I would have crumbled under some strains long time ago if not for my beliefs.

If I believed life has no other meaning I would not bring children into this world. Yes , there is some fun to be had here on earth but at any time you are in danger of some suffering, sometimes pretty horrendous. That is the truth and you as adults must surely have realised by now. I am not scaring anyone. Let's be grown up about it.
What we have today might be gone tomorrow, just like that.

Also , when you are in your thirties you start realizing how quickly life goes anyway ! I feel like I was twenty one a week ago !

And I love my family so much that I will never ever accept , this is it when we die , I want to, I choose to live in hope we meet on the other side. I want to give my children the same comfort in life, the comfort of hope. Some people would say it is a sign of weakness , to me it is just being human and .... me being a big soppy softy at heart which I admit to, am putting my hands up.

I really need to go for good so adieu and happy chatting everyone.

Arcadie · 15/07/2009 15:00

Bye Lemoniee. Enjoyed your views.

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