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Philosophy/religion

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Why shouldn't superstition be ridiculed?

192 replies

Lucia39 · 14/04/2009 12:25

In answer to the OP regarding the 'chattering classes' who 'sneer at Christianity' I would answer thusly.

If people living in the 21st century and who depend upon the advances made in science and technology to benefit their lives still desire to cling on to infantile beliefs that a big daddy in the sky is really running the show and one day he is going to make it all better for them, then they deserve everything they get.

Why can't these people put away such childish things and just grow up?

OP posts:
Lucia39 · 14/04/2009 19:27

"T&P
I wish you would make up your mind Lucia on the other thread Jesus was not a real person, could not possibly be and you only just stopped short of calling for my instant dimissal for allowing students to investigate his existence".

I'd be grateful if you'd kindly refrain from putting words into my mouth! If you are going to cite another person quote them accurately. I also think you should stop overexaggerating. I've made no comment on your teaching style [as I made quite clear on that thread].

Re teaching about the real 'Jesus'. You wrote "I start with a lesson looking at the possibility that Jesus may have been a real man. We look at contemporary evidence"

To which I replied:

How does one look at the 'real' Jesus of Nazareth when there are no contemporary accounts of the man? Most scholars accept that such a man probably existed, given the socio-political situation in early first century Judaea but, nonetheless, the fact remains that there are no extant contemporary accounts of this person."

I repeat again, that the likely existence of a first century Galilean Jewish holy man and the Christ of Pauline Christology are totally separate issues.

It needs to be remembered that this probable Jewish prophet and teacher was gradually transformed over the course of three centuries into the deity of Christian theology.

OP posts:
piscesmoon · 14/04/2009 19:27

I have the God of love-I don't go for all the OT thing, it was only a way of explaining things at the time.

Peachy · 14/04/2009 19:30

Lucia you have grudge issues. Would you like me to pray for you?

And yes of course I am taking the piss before you get offended. But you do have some funny ways about your posts and seem determined to target T&P.

KayHarker · 14/04/2009 19:37

Sorry, off doing the feeding-children thing

OldLadyKnowsNothing, well, generally speaking, I cope because the OT is the record of a nation state, rather than the promulgation of a specific religion, and doesn't shy away from showing the sinful, stupid behaviour of the people that followed God, so I'm not duty-bound to accept that they got it right.
Whereas Muhammad is held up as a paragon of moral virtue in most of the Muslim texts I've read, and they ask me quite seriously to say 'What a guy!', which I find very difficult to do. If the distinction makes sense, which I fully appreciate it may not.

Peachy, no doubt - but compared to Jesus, for me, he falls way short.

Lucia39 · 14/04/2009 19:41

Peachy: "and seem determined to target T&P."

If you look through this thread you will find that the lady appears to have targeted me!

I don't care to have people misquote and overexaggerate what I have written. If people wish to discuss things I have written then they should use accurate quotes, not their own inferences of what they think I wrote or meant.

OP posts:
OldLadyKnowsNothing · 14/04/2009 19:49

Thanks, Kay.

onagar · 14/04/2009 20:55

Oh come on now! Criticising Mohammad for being cruel?

2 King 2:23-24 And he (Elisha) went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tore forty and two children of them.

Unless you believe he had magic powers of his own then your god killed kids for mocking his prophet.

Saying "the OT is the record of a nation state" won't help and nor will "viewing God viewed through different cultural eyes"

KayHarker · 14/04/2009 21:05

I'll go you one better - death exists as a punishment from God for sin in the first place. It's not pretty in the least, and I have no great investment in making it seem so - it's horrible, as is the cross, and I've not attempted to shy away from that on this thread.

God tells me I'm not going to understand why He does things sometimes, and damn right, I don't.

Our Muslim poster asked me why I wasn't impressed with Muhammad - and I answered. As a human being, he didn't impress me. I thought King David was a bit of a tool at times, too.

Anyway, I'm now in piddling about mood, so I shall bow out from being the religious-bod-most-likely-to-defend-the-indefensible, as I have a sick child on my lap.

ummnusaybah · 14/04/2009 21:10

kay, can u give reference to where ''Muhammad killed those who mocked him''?

peachy, ''if you believe Christ is Gods Messiah, u CANT be Muslim'' WHAAAAAAAT???!!!!! *eyes round with shock!!!**
i utterly respect u have studied Islamic studies, with qualifications, BUT if that is what u have learnt from your course, then what the HELL are they teaching u??!!!!lol! Messiah, comes from the hebrew MESS-EE-HAH, meaning, annointed, or chosen one. Jesus, son of Mary, was chosen by the Creator to be sent to the chosen peoples of his time, ie the jews. any muslim who knows his worth will tell u that if we were to denounce jesus as being the chosen one, or the messiah, or indeed any of the prophets and messengers, then we come out of the fold of Islaam! ie we enter disbelief! as Allaah says
"....and remember when the angels said, ''O Maryam, verilly Allaah gives you the glad tidings of a word (ie eesa (jesus)) from Him, his name wil be the Messiah, Eesa, son of Maryam, held in honour in this world and in the Hereafter, and will be one of those near to Allaah'' (Quraan 3:42-)

onagar · 14/04/2009 21:12

Kay, I know you don't defend the morals of the old testament and are well aware of tidbits like that, but since you had expressed that opinion of Muhammad I had to bring it up.

Hope your child feels better soon.

onagar · 14/04/2009 21:17

Ummnusaybah, I expect Peachy meant if you believe Christ is God's son. I'm a bit hazy on the details, but isn't that one of the big differences? that jesus was just a prophet and Muhammad was a later one bring a sequel to the story.

onagar · 14/04/2009 21:20

Ummnusaybah, as I say I'm a bit hazy on the details of Islam and would really like to hear about those "scientific proofs revealed in the Qur'aan"

There are claims that the bible can be proved by the tons of prophecies in it that have come true, but I never seem to get any real examples of those either.

KayHarker · 14/04/2009 21:29

Oh, I get it onagar - the only other thing I would say is that once Christ came, there's no real wiggle room for Christians to behave in the ways that Israel did, and I don't condone any of the post-New Testament period warmongering that tried to pass under the banner of 'Christian'.

Sick child is a heavy lump and I am typing one-handed.

ummnusaybah, I don't have a reference to hand, most of my books on Islam are in the loft right now. It was something to do with a slave girl who sang mocking songs, if that rings any bells. Either way, I was just doing a quick browse through an online life of Muhammad, and it still didn't grab me pleasantly. No disrespect intended, he just doesn't strike me personally as the best of men.

ummnusaybah · 14/04/2009 21:47

i respect what ur saying kay, i honestly do! but im a bit concerned when u sed u tried to get info from the net regarding Muhammad - there are so many unreliable sources regarding islaam, written by God-knows-who, i dont think its a good idea to get ur knowledge from the internet! i certainly dont!

KayHarker · 14/04/2009 21:56

Nope, I have a copy of the Quran (well, actually, I don't anymore, I lent it to a friend who didn't give it back) and some books from a dawah organization.

I wouldn't be suggesting anyone get their info from a google search, agreed. This is what I was just browsing to refresh my memory, it looks fairly OK as a source.

Snorbs · 14/04/2009 21:57

Kay, one of the tricky things about considering the life of Muhammad is deciding which, if any, of the Hadith (the accounts of Muhammad's life as passed down through the generations, and separate to the Qu'ran) to pay attention to. Some Hadith say things about Muhammad that, to 21st Century eyes, are highly questionable.

Complicating the matter is the fact that different sects of Islam view differing groups of Hadith as worth believing.

KayHarker · 14/04/2009 22:03

No doubt - I shall leave it to my Muslim friend to defend Islam, as I make no claim to expertise on it, as is probably obvious - I can barely defend my own faith

twinsetandpearls · 14/04/2009 22:06

I misunderstood you then Lucia and again I apologise, I thought you were saying that it was wrong to study or search for a historical charactar in Jesus.

I am not targetting you Lucia, you started a thhread asking for the opinions of RE teachers and I responded. I did not realise that you were starting a thread for opinions from RE teachers but did not want any to actually reply.

twinsetandpearls · 14/04/2009 22:09

I do agree though on your point about a Jewish prophet/preacher gradually being seen as the leasder of a new faith called Christianity. At university one of my courses was entitled the parting of the ways and involved the study of that period of history when Christianity and Judaism were splitting lead by the rather wonderful Professor Stanton who is another of my theology idols.

ummnusaybah · 15/04/2009 07:59

" Have those who disbelieved not considered that....We made from water every living thing. Then will they not believe?" (al-Anbiyah: 21:30)
"Allaah has created every living creature from water...."(an-Nur:24: - )
"And it is He who created from water.....and ever is our Lord competent concerning creation"(al-Furqaan:25: - )

these verses are especially remarkable, as these were revealed withing an Arabian peninsular, full of sand, and only sand, where water was little, and scarce. Muhammad was ridiculed for these verses, seen as a mad man, for thinking sand as everything else, was made from water. we now know this to be true.

"We have sent down our messengers with clear evidences......and We sent down iron, wherin is great military might and benifit for the people...." (al Hadeed:57)
the quraan uses the word ''anjalna'' (We sent down), stating it was a thing sent down from the heavens to earth. Geologists now agree that all of the energy from our solar system is not sufficient to produce one atom of iron. additionally they state, that 4x more energy as that of the solar system would be required to make one atom of iron on the earths surface. they conclude: iron is an extraterrestrial material sent down from outside our solar system.

"Have those who disbelieve not considered that the heavens and the earth were a joined entity, then, We separated them?" (al-Anbiya21:30)
the Quraan uses 2 specific words, ''fataqa'' - the process of breaking and separating of elements, and ''ratq'' - a fusion or binding together of elements into a homogeneous mass. the verse reveals the heavens and earth were once joined together, then separated, the 'big bang theory' holds that 20 million yrs ago the universe began with the expansion of a single extremely condensed state of matter. the nobel prize for science in '77 was awarded for this 'discovery', yet it was stated to the Muslims centuries ago.

"And the Heaven, We constructed with strength, and indeed, We are its expander."(adh-Dhariyat 51:47)
it was only after the development of the radio telescope in'37 that the expansion ofth universe was observed and established.

"Have We not made the earth as a bed, and the mountains as pegs?" (78: 6-7)
Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground an that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe the mountains on the basis of this information is the word 'peg', since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. This idea was introduced only in 1865 by the Astronomer Royal, Sir George Airy.
mountains also play a key part in stabilizing the crust of the earth, they hinder the earth from shaking:
"And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you..."(16:15)likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics hold that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth, this kind of knowledge began to be understood in the west since the late 1960's.

there are soooo many more, i put these as they are pretty 'self-evident', but i will list more, without explaining why they are significant or when western sciences caught up with the discoveries by the help of who, when, wha and where. but if any sound interesting, or curious, then ask me, and ill explain.

the quraan on human embryonic development
'' on the cerebrum,
the quraan on the mixing of sea and river waters
the partition between waters
the quraan on deep seas and internal waves
the quraan on clouds
the covering of an embryo by three daknesses
the preservation of Pharaohs body!!
the beginning of the universe from a gaseous mass or ''smoke''
the sun is not stationary
the shape of the earth
the presence of subatomic particles
the exsistance of gender in plants
the source of honey
the process of fertilization by the wind
and more, like prophesy's and the stories of previous nations.

ummnusaybah · 15/04/2009 08:25

hi kay!
i took one look at that link u put up, and came outta the page without even gettin to the bottom!!!! i only skim read the first few paragraphs, and what i read is HIGHLY HIGHLY questionable!!!! *shaking head with worried look as i write this thinking ''this is why the muslims are in the state they are in today!!**

for what it is worth - and its not alot, as u dont know me or what im about etc etc, sincere advice to you and anyone else for that matter, is IF, big big IF, u want info on islaam, and im not trying to 'make u see the light' or 'convert' you or anything cringeworthy like that, but IF u want info on islaam, the prophets, who God is/isnt, and most importantly how a Muslim sould behave and conduct themselves them pleeeeease at least take ur info from these sources.
www.salafitalk.net/st/
www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm
www.sunnah.tv/video /
i can only say that the info on these sites comes from trustworthy sources, from people who have learnt islaam from its source, in depth, in detail, without the pollution of back-home culture, custom, own desire, own intellect. to explain why these sites are trustworthy as opposed to the one u gave...., is difficult to explain to a non muslim, and that is not to sound patronizing or anything like that, but it would be kinda like trying to explain the science of biology and physics in one short sitting.all i can say is just humor me, (or yourself!?) and please at least take ur info from these sites, wether u want to look at them in 10 months 10 years or 20 years, just keep these as a starting reference point xxx

Peachy · 15/04/2009 08:53

I got my info from a degree course an reading the Qur'an

I suppose I missed the ord Ultimate. Ultimate Messiah probably phrases it better. God's sup[reme messenger after which not other culd folow.
As opposed to prophet to be folowed by a greater, ultimate Prophet.

I guess in many ways it comes down to who you think your ultimate is, really.

Peachy · 15/04/2009 08:57

That salve girl thing.... thats not being confused with the poet who was put to death for writing oprems criticising Islam is it? Just thoughtb it might be.

KayHarker · 15/04/2009 11:37

Thanks for those links, ummnusaybah, though I found them a bit hard to navigate, and didn't easily find anything about the Seerah (Is that the right name for the life of Muhammad, or am I looking for the wrong thing?)

Peachy, it might be, it's a long time since I was looking at Islam in any depth.

onagar · 15/04/2009 12:26

Ummnusaybah, thank you for replying about the science. I'm still working my way through them.

I'm not a geologist or a biologist, but I think I can tell you that while people contain a lot of water they are not made from it. Nor is sand.

As for the 'iron from above' they might have been refering to iron from meteorites. It's been known about for a long time so I expect Muhammad had heard of it to.

Theory does have all the heavier elements produced by supernovae and plated onto the earth though that would have been before humans. The verse implies that it was sent down WITH the messengers so that doesn't work. I think you are wrong about the '4 times all the energy in the solar system' since that would include the energy of the sun, but maybe they said something like "available energy"

Not sure of the connection between seperating the heavens and earth and the big bang theory. At that time the earth and stars didn't exist so no they were not seperated then.

So basically I see an attempt to reinterpret lines from an old book to mean something new and not succeeding very well at all. As I said the christians are just as bad with the prophecies that 'prove' the bible is true. They get some verse that says something like "and he got on his horse and headed west" and say "see they knew all about the wagon trains heading west when the US was colonised"

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