Why shouldn't superstition be ridiculed?

[Lucia39]

In answer to the OP regarding the 'chattering classes' who 'sneer at Christianity' I would answer thusly.

If people living in the 21st century and who depend upon the advances made in science and technology to benefit their lives still desire to cling on to infantile beliefs that a big daddy in the sky is really running the show and one day he is going to make it all better for them, then they deserve everything they get.

Why can't these people put away such childish things and just grow up?

Mersmam- thanks! not having a go- I've read back my post and it seems a bit agressive- but I DO struggle with the perception/definition of how or what we believe in, but I guess that isn't for this thread...

But really, just saying there is no evidence for God and religion is bunk is daft though, isn't it? Because as KayHarker has pointed out, there is actually a chance that some of us might understand the arguments, and yet still believe.

Like another prominent atheist poster, this OP makes a big deal of the science, but there is of course the inconvenient truth that many people with a very good understanding of science still have a religious faith.

Now, you can call me superstitious. You can refer to my imaginary friend. I'm not offended by either. But I'm not ignorant. And that I find a bit much.

Anyone who is willing to learn is (in my opinion) the opposite of a Thickie Jemin.

Onagar, I am a catholic and my faith tells me that superstition is very wrong simply because it is the belief that our own actions can control events that can only be controlled by God.
Prayer is really just asking for God's will to be done and for the acceptance to deal with it.
I believe that superstition is based on fear whereas religion is based on hope!

As a christian, I would say that superstition is more of an atheist thing!

Well I do realise superstition is sometimes used as an insult, but many people will call themselves superstitious so presumably they don't mean it that way. I thought it included all beliefs in things unexplainable by science. So that christianity would be a subset of superstition.

Snorbs, well, if you're genuinely interested, the Christian belief is much more that Human beings are the ones that 'motivate themselves' to do bad things, rather than 'Satan made me do it'.

You seem to have understood the gist of Romans 9 perfectly well - it's quite straightforward. Where you've thrown yourself a curveball is introducing an undefined notion of 'free will'. There is a very recent thread in this section where a few Christians and others discussed the various views on that.

My mentioning it was essentially to underline that even as far back as the writing of the New Testament, these were issues which Christians grappled with.

Nope! Christianity actually tells us that superstition is sinful (How is that for a contentious post?!)

To be fair mersmam, I suspect it may be working from a rather different definition of superstition than the OP and onagar...

mersmam

Yes Fallen Madonna - you are right
I would define superstition as something NOT coming from God.
It's a difficult line to draw as many superstitions are actually based on prayers (eg. 'Touch wood' originally referred to the wood of Jesus' cross) I suppose it depends on the way you use it... if you say 'touch wood' to mean 'If God wills it' it is religious. If you say it without any knowledge of the meaning behind it and just mean it as a compulsive ritual it is superstition!

Off the point but Snorbs, is that where you live? If so I'm not a million miles away.

In response to various posters:

TheFallenMadonna:
www.teachers.tv/news/30217

Mersmam: No I'm not unquietdad.

Snorbs: Yes I've found the sadomasochistic aspect decidedly distasteful as well!

As for Paul's writings well firstly it should be remembered that these are only Paul's ideas and secondly we need to examine the terminology employed by Paul when describing his perception of Jesus. This is complex, eclectic and somewhat ambiguous.

The basic theme is that of the descent to earth of the divine saviour. This, of necessity, implies other narrative elements as follows. There are two distinct cosmic areas. Heaven, the spiritual realm and Earth, the material domain. Heaven is the upper abode of light and Earth the lower region of darkness. Rescue is needed from the dark prison of the earthly region and no entity subsisting here can secure release. Accordingly no earthly act of liberation is of any effect. No transfer from one area of the lower region to another via physical, moral or ethical exertion is possible. What imprisons is the human condition, which is one of bondage to the powers of evil. From this stems the idea of original sin, a reinterpretation devised by Paul, from the Hebrew story regarding the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the primordial Garden of Eden.

This type of dualistic concept is identical with the religious system known as Gnosticism, now known to have existed before the inception of Christianity, though of course its development assumed many later quasi- Christian forms.

The [then] contemporary Hellenistic world teemed with religious cults and esoteric philosophies that promised salvation of various kinds. Paul would no doubt have rejected them as the service of false gods, but could not have escaped their influence since they reflected the fears and aspirations of society and provided the current religious vocabulary. Two intrinsic ideas propagated by and enshrined within such cults were those of the saviour-god and the fallen state of mankind.

In a nutshell then, Paul created Christianity as a separate cult and achieved this by conflating existing Judaic and Hellenistic concepts into a powerful and all embracing system, sufficient to enable the development of a completely new world religion, being by its nature, both acceptable and intelligible to Graeco-Roman society!

Yeah, I think we are talking about different meanings then. I can't quite recall where in the bible it mentions it. I know there are bits about witches in Deutoromony/Exodus and a whole lot about graven idols (but that was more about going over to the competition)

What do christians call tarot cards, astrology, people claiming they see ghosts, reiki healing and all that stuff? other religions or superstition?

Soooo.... what are the defenitions of 'supersticion' and 'faith' then?

definitions sorry

onagar, well, I tend to avoid 'superstition' as a term because people tend to see it as a pejorative, as this thread shows quite neatly.

So I'm quite happy with 'other beliefs' myself

Lucia, thanks for that, I've never heard of this Paul bloke before, I'll have to look him up.

onagar: "What do christians call tarot cards, astrology, people claiming they see ghosts, reiki healing and all that stuff? other religions or superstition?"

You've been answered by a Christian!
mersmam: "Christianity actually tells us that superstition is sinful"

In other words any supestition that ain't theirs!

Well, actually Lucia, technically, the blanket term would be idolatry, which would cover the atheists too

gosh snorbs!!

just read ur post explaining what u believe happened around the 'crucifiction, sacrifice, God/Son' thing!!!

that was why i left Christianity! i was fed up with doing mental gymnastics to try to understand the whole who God is/isnt, who died/didnt die...etc. religion shouldnt be confusing like this IMO. it has to be clear cut, to the point, easy to follow.

and science can live alongside religion, there are TONS of scientific proofs revealed in the Qur'aan, as ''signs for people of understanding'' to serve as ''proofs'' for the validity of the Book. certainly, we are told to always challenge, and reflect, nothing wrong in wanting proofs! the scientific miracles were given for that specific purpose. (and i dont mind in listing some for the people who are curious either!) these revelations came down OVER 1400 years ago to a man who couldnt even write his own name, and western science has only just caught up and 'verified' them to be true. and who better to know the workings of the heavens and earth and all that is in between, than the One Who created them? nothing wrong in science at all, it is a blessing!! but also something created!

KayHarker: "Well, actually Lucia, technically, the blanket term would be idolatry.."

Idolatry eh? Ah so having a deity in human form isn't idolatry? How do you figure that one out?

lucia ''ah so having a deity in human form isnt idolotry?how du figure that one out?''

Very very true!!

Hmm, not sure you're understanding the definition of idolatry there - it's the worship of false gods. The one true God who has become a human, while remaining fully God, is still the one true God, not a false one.

But you clearly have a much better grasp of Christian belief than actual Christians, so perhaps you would like to correct me on that.

i just dont ''get'' this God/ Human thing!!!
God becomes human.... but he still God??!
doesnt make sense!
if i had a ball of clay that i shaped to a cube and sed ''this is a ball, that is STILL a cube''that is completely irrational, and not true! its one or the other! which is it?

mersmam, you said "(eg. 'Touch wood' originally referred to the wood of Jesus' cross)". I don't think so. I believe it comes from calling upon the agency of the tree sprites who live within the wood. Anyone throw any more light on this?

As for idolatry, is it not the worship of graven images/idols rather than "false gods"?

KayHarker: "Hmm, not sure you're understanding the definition of idolatry there - it's the worship of false gods."

You're absolutely right and Jesus of Nazareth as an observant Jew would have reminded everyone of the first two commandments.

"The one true God who has become a human, while remaining fully God, is still the one true God, not a false one."
This is much later Christian theology. In the early Christian church there were numerous differing religious opinions regarding Jesus' humanity in relation to his divinity. The whole idea of the nature of the Christ was thrashed out centuries later at Niceae in 325CE.

youve got it in one oldladyknowsnothing!!

touching wood stems from the pagens of europe who believed gods or 'mother nature' lived in trees, and so touching these trees or wood meant the tree gods would come out and pretect that person.
spilling salt, breaking mirror, rabbits feet and other 'beliefs' and more, all stem from pagen europe tradition.