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Original poster

calling all Anglicans

213 replies

ionesmum · 25/02/2005 22:35

What do you make of the statement today re the gay issue?

Also, what do you make of the CofE in general?

I'm struggling to stay with the church at the moment, and could really do with some fresh perspectives on things.

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Original poster
ionesmum · 28/02/2005 21:13

Hi, Marina! Hope your foot is better!

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sansouci · 28/02/2005 22:06

Morningpaper is becoming my benchmark!

Gwenick · 28/02/2005 22:14

Given the situation in Africa it's not hard to see why fundamentalism (of all kinds) is taking such a hold. I saw a poor girl on television who had caught AIDS from her husband because sh ewouldn't use a condom. Her Catholic priest had told her she'd go to hell if she did.

Oh dear what a distorted view of it all - actually the it's not the fundamentalist (or Catholic for that matter) churches that are growing the quickest - it's the non denominational ones that are. One of the churches we used to attend was in the process of building a new church - well actually it was more like a warehouse because of it's size - to hold it's several thousand strong congregations. It certainly wasn't a fundamentalist church, had no problems with contraception and the vast majority weren't 'bible bashers' either - just wondeful friendly honest people.

Original poster
ionesmum · 28/02/2005 22:56

Where are you, Gwenick?

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Gwenick · 28/02/2005 22:58

In in wellingborough now, but was living in Zimbabwe - which now ranks as one of the worst affected AIDS regions in sub saharan africa

Original poster
ionesmum · 28/02/2005 23:31

Gwenick, I'm sure you know far more about it than me, but it does seem that there are pockets of fundamentalism in Africa - some of Peter Akinola's views are very extreme, and also those of the RCs in the programme that I saw this young girl in - they were also telling people that AIDS was spread through porous condoms! I am sure there are many moderates too - after all Desmond Tutu is one of the most respected men on the planet. And it's not just Christianity- there was that awful situation in Nigeria where the young mother was to be stoned to death under Shaira law. And not just Africa - maybe it's a worldwide thing too - in the U.S. and the Middle East for example. And of course it's usually those who represent the fewest who shout the loudest.

Have you been in the U.K. long?

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bloss · 01/03/2005 09:05

Message withdrawn

morningpaper · 01/03/2005 09:10

Bloss: What if I'm naturally someone who has a bad temper?

With a bad temper, there is a victim i.e. whoever you are taking your bad temper out on. Where there is an unhappy victim then there is a sin. Who is the victim in a lifelong gay monogamous relationship?

bloss · 01/03/2005 09:13

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morningpaper · 01/03/2005 09:17

Bloss: Again, the apostles specifically condemned women speaking in church. And no where did they address the concept of a monogamous lifelong gay relationship. They offer no useful comment on that situation.

I very much disagree with the idea of leaders/priests being 'better than' the members of the congregation and being allowed different standards - i.e. congregation can be divorced but not leaders. Surely we are ALL priests and equal before God? How can you have two standards? Surely either something is wrong or it is not - how can a divorced person be good enough to be 'saved' but not good enough to 'lead'?

morningpaper · 01/03/2005 09:23

Bloss: The Bible defines sin as disobedience to God

I assume you mean the rules that God has set out in the Bible? IMO this is a very law-based idea of God, which, as you said before, the apostles explained was "no longer the basis of our relationship with God".

My Christian life is not based on 'The Bible' - but on tradition and scripture. I think that scripture has to be interpreted for each generation. The Bible is pretty clear about lots of things that we now know are wrong i.e. the universe revolving around the world. Science and psychology and experience all help me to interpret scripture.

Most of the problems caused in the church today are because the different 'sides' are all shouting that the other's opinions are "not Christian", so I think we are back to the beginning.

bloss · 01/03/2005 09:46

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bloss · 01/03/2005 09:47

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Gwenick · 01/03/2005 09:55

Ionesmum - I 'think' I know the programme you're talking about - we watched it too and were astounded by the very bad portrayal of Christianity in Africa - like some of the other programmes presented by the same person (presuming we watched the same programme) it showed a minority type of Christianity.

But you know what - there's pockets of fundamentalism in EVERY country in the world!!!

I've been back in the UK for 5yrs now, lived out there for 2 1/2yrs and my DH is from there.

Tissy · 01/03/2005 09:59

sorry, bloss, as usual my memory is a little hazy, I could have sworn that I was told (by a PP)that bits of the New Testament were written hundreds of years after Jesus' death. I stand corrected. Have looked it up- the NT was written between 45 and 95 AD.

Still a long time. The oldest NT writings were 15 years after Jesus died. That is plenty of time for "interpretation" to happen.

bloss · 01/03/2005 10:03

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Gwenick · 01/03/2005 10:03

that's true Tissy - some bit were written later - however, unlike today when the vast majority of people pass information on by written word, in those days the written word was much less common and as a result talking was the way things were passed on - many of the myths and legends which we have written down today are pretty accurate because for them passing information on by word was the 'norm' as opposed to writing which we have today.

Also - the bible is written with divine leading, all books of the bible were written by man, inspired by God - so the fact that they were written earlier/later doesn't actually matter.

Original poster
ionesmum · 01/03/2005 11:45

Soory - am in a huge hurry so haven't got time to read through everything. But just a few quick points:

When I was considering ordination it wasn't (and isn't) because I believe I could be in a position of leadership, but rather that I need to be in a position of service. I am a very selfish person and am aware that I am in constant need of God's help, and so need to be in a position of service that is visible and makes me accountable. Talking to various priests I have found that they feel the same. The person who seeks ordination or leadership because he or she thinks that have a spotless life and can be an example to the rest of us is deluding themselves. It's probably not my place to say but from what I've heard here morningpaper would make a fine priest with a great deal of humanity and a knowledge of how frail we all are.

Bloss, I believe sin does need to have a victim, even if that victim is ourselves. So for example I believe promiscuity to be wrong because if someone is promiscuous then they are preventing themselves from finding a meaningful relationship, and cheapening something that is sacred about themselves. And often of course they are masking a deep unhappiness. Two people of the same sex that truly love each other and are faithful and committed are showing God's love through that relationship.

Gwenick - did you have to leave Zimbabwe bevcause of the current situation? One of my heroes is Henry Alonga - talk about Christianity in action!

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Gwenick · 01/03/2005 11:48

Yes main reason for leaving was the situation out there - we were planning on a baby straight away (honeymoon baby ) and as we didn't own a car I was using public transport - and with the political tension rising DH didn't really fancy the idea of a petite pg women on here on on the buses

When we came back we brought a newspaper clipping with us as at the time it was SO shocking - it was of the 1st white farmer to be killed - we found it when we moved house last year and realised we simply didn't realise how poignant it was at the time.

Henry Olonga really is fabulous - I have so much respect for him.

morningpaper · 01/03/2005 13:24

Bloss: Christians always believed that the Bible was clear about the earth being the centre of the universe - otherwise Galileo wouldn't have got into so much trouble. Joshua refers to the sun standing still, for example. The sun is frequently referred to as having a path through the sky as it rotates around the earth. Of COURSE this is the case, because that's what people believed at the time.

They also believed that God created two humans several thousand years ago - which we no longer accept as the true narrative.

We clearly have different views on the Bible however, which are never going to meet.

(By the way have you ever wondered exactly what Jesus said as 'the Beatitudes'? It was studying that that made me realise just how slanted the gospel accounts are - the versions are so different.)

morningpaper · 01/03/2005 13:26

Ionesmum: Very profound thoughts on ordination, which I completely agree with. I think there is a difference between the Protestant emphasis on 'leadership'(=example - God knows I'd never be one of those!) and the more Catholic idea of priesthood (=a calling to serve).

One of the pope's titles is "The Servant of the Servants of God."

Original poster
ionesmum · 01/03/2005 21:41

morningpaper, I didn't know that about the Pope. I have very mixed feelings about the Papacy. My much-loved grandmother was an RC. During the War she saw newsreel footage of the Pope blessing Mussolini's troops - the same ones who were going to fight her brothers and friends - and she realised she could no longer believe in papal infallibility. As far as I know she never attended mass again, but she also believed that once a Catholic, always a Catholic and so she never converted to CofE. I think it was very hard for her. She lived with us and had a huge influence on my faith. However, I also attended the Baptist church when I was at primary school as that was the only place that had a vacancy in their Brownie pack , and I did enjoy my time there. So I think that's why now I find it hard to say exactly where I belong. As an adult I'm finding that there is a real sense of fellowship at the Baptist church where we now live that doesn't exist in the Anglican one, and I can't work out what it is that the Anglicans are doing wrong.

Bloss, you and I have very different ideas of what it means to obey God. You believe it is to follow the Bible to the letter, I believe it is (in the instances of homosexuality, divorce and other matters of human behaviour) to obey Jesus' order that we love one another and treat others as we would want to be treated, and then discern what that means in light of the Bible, prayer and human experience. We've been here before, haven't we? As I said before, 'the Word became flesh, not book'.

Gwenick, How awful for you and for dh. Does he still have family in Zimbabwe? Are they okay? The situation there is just appalling and it shames our government that they have done so little about it.

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bloss · 02/03/2005 07:26

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bloss · 02/03/2005 07:39

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morningpaper · 02/03/2005 08:40

I think this thread shows the real problem in the Anglican church - which is one of authority. Basically there are two groups - one which thinks that authority comes from the Bible and one which thinks that authority comes from the Church's interpretation of scripture for it's own time and place. Both sides think that they are the most Orthodox!

On a slightly different note, there was a letter in the Independent last week - following the request for the Canadian/North American churches to withdraw - asking what about those of us who agree with the position of the Canadian/NA Church - where does that leave us? A good question, I thought!