calling all Anglicans

[ionesmum]

What do you make of the statement today re the gay issue?

Also, what do you make of the CofE in general?

I'm struggling to stay with the church at the moment, and could really do with some fresh perspectives on things.

We've just read ds the story about Jesus gathering his disciples as his bedtime story. DP pointed out that Jesus' first move was to go down to the lake and ask the sailors to be his friends ... he wanted to know if this had any bearing on the current debate!

lol fisil!

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Hi, Bloss! Great to see you posting. You and I have been here before, and I think after our last conversation on the subject we reached a kind of fellowship, which shows that differences can be put aside in God's name.

MP, you'd make a great lay reader. Have you studied theology?

I so agree with MP that the teachings on love, forgiveness and tolerance matter far more than the prohibition on gay relationships. I also think that the Holy Spirit is more than capable of moving us to a different understanding of humanity than existed in biblical times.

I also agree that a wonderful thing about Anglicanism was that you could find a home there wheter you were an Evangelical, liberal, cathoilic or somewhere in between. I really think that those days have gone. I'm also with MP that schism is inevitable, and different parishes will be asked to decide whether they want to go with the conservatives or the liberals - and here it will be the former. Last year we finally overturned the resolutions A&B but it has caused a lot of bad feeling.

BTW how's this for Christianity in action? Since our priest has retired we can't announce who is taking the services, because a group of people have taken against one lay reader and boycott his services. But now that we occasionally have a woman priest filling in, her services do get announced in advance so that people can boycott hers!

We have a thriving pram service which is run by mums but aided by both the Anglican and Baptist churches. However, none of the families attend church at any other time, apart from one who is an RC so goes elsewhere! I think this is an example of how churches will have to change; traditional Sunday worship just doesn't fit in with people's lives any more.

Bloss, I agree with you about the church buildings. MP, I think you are going to end up in a similar situation to us. I could weep when I think what the money could have done in terms of ministering to those who really are in need.

Well, I took the dds to the Baptist church today and we had a great time. The Anglican 'All-age' worship is really aimed at primary school children, and I usually spend the whole service trying to stop dd from hurting herself until we can have communion/blessing and leave. Today dd had a wonderful time - she danced around, tried to join in the songs, showed that she knew all about Noah's Ark and even got up on teh stage at one point! And afterwards she got to do some great craft activities. And dd2 got to crawl around on their lovely carpeted floor without me having to worry if she would eat a bat dropping!

Interesting thread! Not anglican, we go to a baptist church. Interested about you dh's meeting cam, as to how to get young people into the church. We are getting better at that, but still probably only have 15-20 regulars. They are however joining others in youth services, one is at an anglican, one at a free church etc... we now have one dedicated youth service a month. I love it, much better than other services. They let me go even though I am 32! I sat in a monrning service 2 weeks ago and tried to count how many people there were under 30,not enough, so tried under 40, then under 50, there were only 10 of us, out of about 90.

From Fisil... "We mistake things as being God's word when in fact they are tradition which is based on the sociological and historical conditions that necessitated them. Women - and sausages - are good examples of this. We should be continually updating and renewing our understanding of God's will within the world in which we live. But we should also bear in mind that we have in the past, and will again, get it wrong, as we are only people!"

Just wanted to TOTALLY agree with the above statement made by Fisil which I have been trying to make throughout this - and other - threads.. but not as eloquently!

SJ x

I'd always wondered why there was so much argument about circumcision, until I read that if an adult man was circumcised in Biblical times then it would have been dome without an anaesthetic, and would take a good year to recover from given the likelihood of infection (assuming he didn't die, of course) during which time he would be incapable of working to support his family. If the need for circumcision hadn't been lifted then the church would have died in the first few years.

Bloss, I don't have a problem with the divorce issue unless we're talking multiple divorce/remarriage. I think MP's siuation shows how complicated life is and I know several couples who are in a similar situation. I don't see why that should bar someone from a leadership position - in fact I would rather be led by someone who has some experience of how messy life can be.

BTW Bloss, over here the Anglacn press has been reporting some interesting things about the cathedral in Sydney and Peter Jensen. Is it true that he has removed the altar and now has services held around a huge Bible? That he has banned the choir from singing in Latin? That he is allowing lay presidency? I know he's siad some really unhelpful things about Rowan Williams.

I used to go to evensong where I was the only person under fifty out of eight of us!

The Anglican church here is very half-hearted about young people. The idea seems to be get them while they're little, then hope they come back once thye have their own kids. The problem is we never have open meetings on ministry where people can get together and bounce ideas off each other. There is even talk of a single group of about ten or so people (unelected - as ar eour pccs) to decide the whole of the mission and ministry for the benefice

fisil, your comments about us being fallible is why I can't believe that the Bible is inviolate. It has passed through the hands (and minds) of so many, it's impossible to believe that it hasn't got distorted.

Bloss: Your views are not really reconisable as Church of England views. It sounds (to me) like your church has more in common with Evangelical alliance beliefs?

I think if we banned divorced or gay people from leadership in this country we'd probably have to fire about 50% of our clergy!

Ionesmum: Yes I have a degree in theological studies plus similar qualifications - I used to teach adult education theology and philosophy classes.

Yawn Will write more tomorrow!

Bloss: I know you're not CofE of course - just saying that I've not heard any views like yours expressed over here!

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I attend a rapidly growing CofE church who are against the use of gay priests. We have a range of ages (from 4 weeks old up to 93 - that's the oldest member that 'comes' to the church) a Sunday school of around 40 and many young people's groups and a wide mixture of services, Taize, Holy Communion, Praise, Evensong, Evening Worship etc etc. We're most certainly NOT anti women - we'd have a job on really -

Female : vicar, warden, organist, treasurers, secretary and pastoral assistant - .

mp - why did you choose to study theology? Have you considered ordination? I struggled for ages over the fact I felt called to explore my vocation to the ministry (no-one in their right minds would actually want to be a priest )but eventually decided I had to go forward for selection, even if I ended up being rejected. I had completed my foundation level for my degree and made my appointment to see the DDO when I found that dd1 was on the way. It was a huge shock after so much soul-searching to find myself going somewhere else entirely. Now I find being a mum the most fulfilling thing I've ever experienced, and to be frank I'd have been of no use to anyone without having experienced the vulnerability that motherhood brings, but I do find it frustrating that I've had to put everything else on hold.

Socci: Yes people are often surprised! Especially as my 'day job' is making websites!

Ionesmum: I think that the first step for me is to see whether I could hack it as a lay reader. Although unless I grow a penis I don't think that my pp is going to put me forward. Now I've got no. 2 on the way as well, so things are suspended for a while for me as well. The free time I have now I tend to be WORKING for CASH rather than doing non-paid work or study!

A problem for me is that I haven't remarried. DP and I are both divorced. Remarrying would be quite hurtful to our ex-spouses and it's not something we feel is appropriate at the moment. So we are still 'living in sin' (not that we get much time for any decent sinning with a 2 year-old of course.)

I occasionally toy with the idea of setting up a christian mothers-and-toddlers group - I noticed someone on here saying she attended a jewish group recently (I think). Is there anything like that where you are?

I bumped into a priest on her just before Christmas who was pregnant - can't remember her name now!

Gwenick: Your church sounds great. Very jealous of all your services for young people!

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Thank you SleepyJess, you've made me feel very happy this morning!

I agree with ionesmum very strongly on this one...a fellow liberal anglo-catholic pokes her head over the parapet. I too am alarmed at the stance of the Church in Africa on the issue of homosexual priests. My diocese would collapse if it took a hard line on this one.
My former parish church had a similar power struggle when our long-standing PP retired, Ionesmum...and then signed up for Resolution B. I was deeply saddened as there were 12 of us on the PCC, three other women, and only I and two men voted against it. We had FIVE people wanting to go the whole hog for Resolution A. In this day and age.

Yes, the basic message is very simple, Bloss, ie love and forgiveness. I take your point about preachers setting an example in their own lives but I don't believe it is the same as a judge having a criminal past. I think the concept of redemption should take precedence in the church. How do you know that there are no gay preachers in your church? I know for a fact that some simply do not come out.

I'm afraid I'm of the stance the if you 'belief' in something (the bible, the koran, the torah - whatever your religious book is) you either follow it or you don't. If you don't like bits of it and 'change the rules' because you feel it doesn't fit in with modern soceity then what's the point of saying you believe??? I'm afraid I don't like all this picking and choosing which bits we follow and which bits we don't! If you don't want to believe what's in the bible then don't call yourself a Christian - sorry if I upset anyone here but it's just my opinion.

Oh and as for the African stance - well they've got some of the fastest growing churches in the world - so they must be doing 'something' right!

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But is it my place to judge people who deviate from Biblical teaching on homosexuality and divorce, though Bloss? I am just wondering what was actually achieved for the good at my old church when the Crucifer, a long-standing PCC member, was asked to stand down from this role in Parish Mass because he had been abandoned by his wife, who ran off with the Lay Reader.
I would never describe your views as simplistic, I always read what you say with huge interest and respect - I wish I had the time and the intellect to study theology more rigorously. I hold up my hands to warm and fuzzy straightaway.

I do (agree with Cam that is - it's quite a common stance amongst "chattering class lady C of E parishioners" in the UK!)