Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Original poster

calling all Anglicans

213 replies

ionesmum · 25/02/2005 22:35

What do you make of the statement today re the gay issue?

Also, what do you make of the CofE in general?

I'm struggling to stay with the church at the moment, and could really do with some fresh perspectives on things.

OP posts:

Marina · 28/02/2005 11:12

Snort issymum! You could have planted potatoes on the creche floor at our old high Anglican place of worship. Our then PP sincerely believed that all under 5s were freaks like him who enjoyed sitting through 1.5 hours of incense, plainsong, sung mass etc, from a young age...
Our new church is all over the place liturgically and spiritually, with zero music , but kind and welcoming to small children beyond belief. No creche as dd is then only regular attender under four, but a clean carpet to the side of the nave, with cushions and toys put out for her every Sunday. And a really committed little Sunday School of about 10 older children.

Ameriscot2005 · 28/02/2005 11:14

I suppose the answer to that question, Issymum, is that them money is in the evangelical churches. And the money comes from having large, growing congregations.

I am also in Guildford Diocese (meeting the new bishop today, as it happens) and we have an absolutely gorgeous church building and even better church family. I love when visitors come to the church and their look of amazement when they see how warm, comfortable and inviting the building is. And how easy it is to follow the service when it's on the big screen .

Issymum · 28/02/2005 11:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request

welshmum · 28/02/2005 11:31

Don't know if we're bucking the trend but would like to say that I attend a fast growing C of E church in London. On Sunday we had 4 Sunday school classes and 25 under 3s in the creche. We are a liberal congregation with gay members involved in the leadership of the church. I am so proud to be a member of such a tolerant and loving community and think the wider church and leadership is far too often distracted from more important issues by homosexuality. Money should be top of the list of concerns we have and righting the terrible inequalities across the world.

Ameriscot2005 · 28/02/2005 11:33

We are over in NW Surrey, Runnymede Deanery.

Our screen is rolled away when it's not in use, but when it's out it does hide some rather ugly artwork that the Georgian preservation folks wouldn't let us paint over .

We have plans this year to start using the church as a free cinema for youth and for things like football matches, because we have the biggest screen in the area. We already do this in our youth space ('cos they have a big screen too) but these events are just too popular.

Since we are all counting kids, we have about 200 in our church.

Cam · 28/02/2005 11:38

Gwenick, there has to be the possibility of new interpretation, theology is not an exact science. My dd attends the lovely Sunday school in the church hall, usually containing no more than a dozen children aged 4 - 11. In my part of this town , there are very few children (the average age of residents in this particular part is near retirement) which is great in some ways: lots of attention and no waiting list for the Brownies etc. Also there is a very active and large RC church (and school) nearby.

bloss · 28/02/2005 11:40

Message withdrawn

bloss · 28/02/2005 11:44

Message withdrawn

Marina · 28/02/2005 11:46

Bloss, more food for thought, thank you. Yes, it was because his wife ran off. The parish priest apparently felt it was inappropriate (I think he may have felt the wife was justified in leaving, something I have no idea about) for the man to continue to lead in the clergy and choir. I found the whole matter, and the resulting whispers/hearsay ripple effect, really upsetting.

Gwenick · 28/02/2005 11:59

But you can't 're interpret' the parts of the bible where it says homosexuality is immoral! In the same way you can't ' reintepret' the fact the adultery and stealing are immoral!

sansouci · 28/02/2005 12:11

I'm C of E but dh is Catholic. I gave my permission for dd & dd to be brought up as Catholic because I know it means a great deal to dh. I would never convert and have since regretted allowing our children to be brought up as Catholics, especially because of the high incidence of paedophile priests! I feel so unhappy about the problems the C of E is having. I know I'm putting myself out on a limb here but I am against gays being married in a church as marriage is a sacrament. I cannot force myself to feel that homosexuality is holy... I'm sorry to cause offence! I do wish gay couples every happiness, including the right to adopt or "have" children. I also feel that gay couples should have the same legal rights and benefits of heterosexual couples and should therefore be permitted to marry in a "civil" ceremony.

sansouci · 28/02/2005 12:13

(I have a dd & and a ds, not 2 dds! Therefore am concerned on a personal level about paedophile priests.)

Tissy · 28/02/2005 12:36

am a little confused, sanssouci, why you think that a daughter is not a target for a paedophile, and why you think that paedophile priests haveto be catholic?

Marina · 28/02/2005 12:42

Yes, I'm confused about that too Tissy

sansouci · 28/02/2005 12:48

Yes, that's true enough. I guess I'm the one that's confused! I think it's because a priest at dh's former school was just outed for paedophilia & it shocked me rigid.

sansouci · 28/02/2005 12:49

ooops... who is confused, not that is confused.

morningpaper · 28/02/2005 16:32

Sansouci: I don't think that anyone has argued for 'gay marriage' in that respect. That is just something that the tabloids have put about. In the states where gay relationships are blessed, the ceremony is similar to the blessing of second marriages, rather than a wedding.

morningpaper · 28/02/2005 16:35

The Bible talks NO WHERE about the kind of gay relationships that we are talking about. The Bible has NOTHING TO SAY about a lifelong monogamous gay companionship.

(Which of us would be happy to have discussions about our marriages reduced to the act of fucking?!)

purpleturtle · 28/02/2005 17:38

I'm a baptist member of an Anglican/Baptist church. I've read a lot (but not all) of this thread, and although I haven't really got anything to add to the debate, I did want to recommend a book I'm reading at the moment called 'A Generous Orthodoxy' by Brian McLaren, which is really challenging me to embrace all that's good, and reject all that's not good in all streams of Christianity. (And I used to be a raving fundamentalist when i was at school! )

Cam · 28/02/2005 19:21

But Gwenick most of the Bible is other people's interpretations of Jesus' teachings.

Tissy · 28/02/2005 19:55

none of it was written contemporaneously, and bits were written several hundred years later. I suppose it all boils down to whether you believe the whole kit and caboodle is "inspired" or not.

(Another fuzzy angl-ctholic liberal for the club!)

morningpaper · 28/02/2005 20:00

Personally I don't think that the writers of the Bible had any concept of a lifelong gay relationship in the way that we do now.

I see the 'homosexual' prohibitions in a similar way to the food/dress/purity prohibitions. They are talking about practice, whereas we are talking about relationships. Surely any sin has to have a negative effect on someone or something? How does homosexuality have a negative effect on anything?

My idea of God is NOT some supernatural being who creates gay people and then deprives them of lifelong love and companionship. That's just plain wrong to me.

Sorry getting dragged into the Eternally Unending Argument now...

(... I saw a young teenage girl on the train today reading one of the "Left Behind!" American novels and I wanted to snatch it off her and say "STOP THE MADNESS!" but then I thought ah well, at least she probably won't end up drunkenly knocked up at 15... )

morningpaper · 28/02/2005 20:08

Bloss: You seem to see people as either 'christian' or 'non-christian'. I see it as more of a lifelong process rather than a one-side-or-the-other issue. I have been a 'christian' all my life and I've done some very wicked things during that time. However, I am learning to be good and holy and I like to think that I get better at this the older I get! People are such messy creatures - surely what matters is a desire to be seeking the truth and holiness? You sound like you have a 'one-strike-and-you're-out' policy. I'd hate to think that I was never able to be in a position of leadership because I was divorced when I was 21. I had my whole life ahead of me then!!

Issymum: lol at the 'old bats running the creche'. I think that's part of the anglo-catholic package... (horrifying isn't it!)

Cam · 28/02/2005 20:13

Oh yes its definitely a journey

Original poster

ionesmum · 28/02/2005 21:13

mp, re the Christian mums and toddlers, our pram service isn't a million miles from this. We have a fifteen minute worship followed by themed crafts and refreshments, and we give the parents/carers a handout with ideas for using at home plus a reflection for adults. We are thinking of starting a mum's prayer/faithsharing group but few of us seem to have the time atm.

There does seem to be a real blind spot in anglo-catholic churches re children. I can't get through to our pcc how dangerous the buildings are. When we first put forward the pram service idea the Anglicans immediately suggested that we ask for old toys and equipment, and when we said we needed certian things buying the pcc said, well lets see how it goes first...but if you don't invest up front then people won't come after the first time. In the end our pp paid for it all out of his discretionary fund. Then you shoudl of heard the fuss made about the baby changing unit we put in the loo- apparently the ladies on the cleaning rota refused to be responsible for cleaning it!!!!!!!!! They say they want to be child friendly but a lot of it is lip-service esp. where the really little ones are concerned. I might not be where they are theologically but dd got far more out of the Baptist service than she ever has at an Anglican one. Now some on teh pcc are asking for us to hold fund-raisers and have a collection to fund the pram service, but when we set it up we insisted that we would never raise money for the church or the service, and would never have a collection - the church here always has its hand out for that bloody building and we wanted the service to be our gift to the local families.

It'd be nice to think that all church leaders are beyong reproach, but they are human, so they can't be. To liken divorce to criminal activity isn't really helpful. And in my experience the more I've discovered a church leader's flaws, the more I'v e liked them! If being beyond reproach is essential for being a priest then I won't bother taking things any further because I most definitely won't be suitable.

Thanks for the info on Peter Jensen, Bloss, very interesting.

Given the situation in Africa it's not hard to see why fundamentalism (of all kinds) is taking such a hold. I saw a poor girl on television who had caught AIDS from her husband because sh ewouldn't use a condom. Her Catholic priest had told her she'd go to hell if she did.

OP posts:

Flip

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9