Page 9 | Do you believe in god?

GarlicSound · 05/01/2026 23:44

Abhannmor · 05/01/2026 23:08

I'm sure God , if he or she exists , can do without my assistance. But , FFS , you are somewhat pedantic and literal aren't you? Augustine of Hippo shot all this down 2000 years ago. It's called 'allegory'

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Pedantic, literal and facetious! Three for the price of one, get 'em while they're hot.

I will pedantically mention that A of H was not bishop of a Christian church five years before Jesus had even started preaching! He was approx 1600 years ago, not 2000.

Augustine took the view that, if a literal interpretation contradicts science and humans' God-given reason, the biblical text should be interpreted metaphorically. While each passage of Scripture has a literal sense, this "literal sense" does not always mean the Scriptures are mere history; at times they are rather an extended metaphor.

What a cop-out. This book is the word of god, written by hands divinely directed. It is the whole and only truth. Except where it isn't. Then it's a metaphor. Which bits are metaphors, and what for? So glad you asked, there are thousands of theologists in need of work. This'll keep them busy for millennia.

I take your point, though: Hippo taught that God created the universe ex nihilo (out of nothing) and that creation was instantaneous, with the six days of Genesis representing a temporal unfolding, not literal 24-hour periods, but rather seminal causes or "seeds" of all things brought forth by God at once in the beginning. He saw Genesis as revealing God's relationship with creation, while viewing time itself as created with the world, not before it.

Not all of Genesis, though. He taught that the Tree of Knowledge should be understood both symbolically and as a real tree. He was really good at creating work for theologians, I'll give him that!

Bingbongsingalong · 05/01/2026 23:49

No. There is no god. Even if there were, and it could be proved beyond all reasonable doubt, he wouldn't get any respect or love from me, i'd say he was cruel. I do not believe that something with so much power could be so truly awful and deserve our worship.

Besides, it is ridiculous that the god you believe in miraculously changes according to geography. It is indoctrination, nothing else.

MustTryHarderAndHarder · 05/01/2026 23:55

Fibonacci2 · 04/01/2026 23:52

No, I can see why people do but judge them quietly. It’s all utter bollocks from a time before an understanding of science.

It’s caused nothing but hate and division.

It was simply a way to control the masses before people became educated which was needed.

Now it is just a money making scheme which causes wars.

GarlicSound · 06/01/2026 00:12

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 05/01/2026 22:05

Causality requires the passage of time to go from cause to effect. If time doesn't exist for a given entity then that entity cannot cause any effect to occur. That entity is frozen and completely incapable of doing anything.

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I rather like this.

Given the Augustine of Hippo summary I've just read, creation was instantaneous, with the six days of Genesis representing a temporal unfolding, not literal 24-hour periods, but rather seminal causes of all things brought forth by God at once in the beginning ... time itself created with the world, not before it.

If we totally ignore the fact that the events of the 'creation' are not sequential causes, it presents an interesting concept of god. The photon is a packet of energy for which time and space are non-existent. When it hits something, it has an effect. Augustine seems to see his god as like an energy package travelling at light speed, which smashed into the Earth, releasing the elements that would become the planet as we know it.

This would, of course, mean the god-energy-package no longer exists. It would've instantaneously become part of the stuff it created, not hung around like one Bart Simpson's farts. It's a lovely idea but, sadly, inconsistent with the rest of the church's teachings.

GentleSheep · 06/01/2026 01:57

GarlicSound · 05/01/2026 20:52

You'd need to know whether the ancients group reptiles with birds, fish or animals. I have more questions!
How did he do the light and dark, when he hadn't created the sun yet?
How can he have done things in a 'day' with no sun to mark a day?
When did he do the stars and other planets?
If he did the sea before the land, was the planet all water until 'day' three?
What did he do on days 8, 9 and 10?
I guess he might have used the next few weeks to create nebulae, black holes, galaxy clusters, dark matter and so on.
If he's going from planet to planet, spending an (indefinable) week creating stuff there, he's probably still at it. 14 billion years doing the same job, week in, week out ...

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This is such a great series of questions, similar to what I had when starting to study Genesis. I've a good commentary on this as well ("The Genesis Account" by Jonathan Sarfati) which covers Ch 1-11 of Genesis in detail. So with some help from that here are some answers you could mull over:

How did he do the light and dark, when he hadn't created the sun yet?
Because God is light Himself, sometimes called the Shekinah glory, a light brighter than the Sun. So He is providing the light at that point.

How can he have done things in a 'day' with no sun to mark a day?
See my first answer, plus: God has separated the light from the darkness at this point, in order to have a day-night cycle all you need is a rotating earth and light coming from one direction. Since we know God created the earth on Day One, we have all we need to have a day-night cycle.

When did he do the stars and other planets?
Day Four - "And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,f and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day." The expanse (or firmament) created for this was made on Day Two, which God fills on Day Four.

If he did the sea before the land, was the planet all water until 'day' three?
There's a verse in 2 Peter 3:5 that mentions something related to this: "For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God". Either that or the land was submerged as is suggested in Gen. 1:9 "And God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.'" Hard to say whether it was all water and transformed by God into part water, part land, or the land was always there submerged.

What did he do on days 8, 9 and 10?
If you mean, what did He do after His Day Seven rest, He rested permanently from creation. So that would mean He didn't keep on creating things like nebulae, black holes, galaxy clusters, dark matter that you referred to. They were already created on Day Four. God was then busy with other things, He is working, but not creating.

Someone also asked who created God - He wasn't created. He just is. He is eternal and so does not have a beginning or an end. Beyond that I don't have enough theology or philosophy to go further!

GarlicSound · 06/01/2026 02:03

What a nice answer, @GentleSheep, thank you.

RedTagAlan · 06/01/2026 02:59

GentleSheep · 06/01/2026 01:57

This is such a great series of questions, similar to what I had when starting to study Genesis. I've a good commentary on this as well ("The Genesis Account" by Jonathan Sarfati) which covers Ch 1-11 of Genesis in detail. So with some help from that here are some answers you could mull over:

How did he do the light and dark, when he hadn't created the sun yet?
Because God is light Himself, sometimes called the Shekinah glory, a light brighter than the Sun. So He is providing the light at that point.

How can he have done things in a 'day' with no sun to mark a day?
See my first answer, plus: God has separated the light from the darkness at this point, in order to have a day-night cycle all you need is a rotating earth and light coming from one direction. Since we know God created the earth on Day One, we have all we need to have a day-night cycle.

When did he do the stars and other planets?
Day Four - "And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,f and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day." The expanse (or firmament) created for this was made on Day Two, which God fills on Day Four.

If he did the sea before the land, was the planet all water until 'day' three?
There's a verse in 2 Peter 3:5 that mentions something related to this: "For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God". Either that or the land was submerged as is suggested in Gen. 1:9 "And God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.'" Hard to say whether it was all water and transformed by God into part water, part land, or the land was always there submerged.

What did he do on days 8, 9 and 10?
If you mean, what did He do after His Day Seven rest, He rested permanently from creation. So that would mean He didn't keep on creating things like nebulae, black holes, galaxy clusters, dark matter that you referred to. They were already created on Day Four. God was then busy with other things, He is working, but not creating.

Someone also asked who created God - He wasn't created. He just is. He is eternal and so does not have a beginning or an end. Beyond that I don't have enough theology or philosophy to go further!

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This is all very nice, but now Mr Sarfati needs to go back and do it all again, because there are 2 different creation accounts in Genesis.

And the God, has different names. There is Elohim, and there is YHWH.

And the whole sun thing makes no sense anyway. The big bang model has no light at the start. That comes after, at the photon epoch. And there was certainly no deep water.

I won't go through your whole post, But just consider this bit, for example. Quote " And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.". The moon is not a light. It reflects the light from the sun. This is an example of a glaring mistake that can't be hand waved away.

Parker231 · 06/01/2026 05:40

GentleSheep · 06/01/2026 01:57

This is such a great series of questions, similar to what I had when starting to study Genesis. I've a good commentary on this as well ("The Genesis Account" by Jonathan Sarfati) which covers Ch 1-11 of Genesis in detail. So with some help from that here are some answers you could mull over:

How did he do the light and dark, when he hadn't created the sun yet?
Because God is light Himself, sometimes called the Shekinah glory, a light brighter than the Sun. So He is providing the light at that point.

How can he have done things in a 'day' with no sun to mark a day?
See my first answer, plus: God has separated the light from the darkness at this point, in order to have a day-night cycle all you need is a rotating earth and light coming from one direction. Since we know God created the earth on Day One, we have all we need to have a day-night cycle.

When did he do the stars and other planets?
Day Four - "And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons,f and for days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth.” And it was so. And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars. And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day." The expanse (or firmament) created for this was made on Day Two, which God fills on Day Four.

If he did the sea before the land, was the planet all water until 'day' three?
There's a verse in 2 Peter 3:5 that mentions something related to this: "For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God". Either that or the land was submerged as is suggested in Gen. 1:9 "And God said, 'Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.'" Hard to say whether it was all water and transformed by God into part water, part land, or the land was always there submerged.

What did he do on days 8, 9 and 10?
If you mean, what did He do after His Day Seven rest, He rested permanently from creation. So that would mean He didn't keep on creating things like nebulae, black holes, galaxy clusters, dark matter that you referred to. They were already created on Day Four. God was then busy with other things, He is working, but not creating.

Someone also asked who created God - He wasn't created. He just is. He is eternal and so does not have a beginning or an end. Beyond that I don't have enough theology or philosophy to go further!

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What was he busy working on when not creating?

RedTagAlan · 06/01/2026 05:44

GarlicSound · 06/01/2026 02:03

What a nice answer, @GentleSheep, thank you.

Except it never answered the questions.

And here is the thing about the Bible, there is not a page of it that does not raise more questions. And theologians can't answer any of them well.

Here is a good exercise for Bible advocates though, an exercise that does not need a theologian to answer. Just a Bible.

Name 6 or so good moral lessons in the Bible. Pick any translation you want. The King James has about 780k words. Can you find 6 good moral lessons from those 780k words ?

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 06/01/2026 07:10

Abhannmor · 05/01/2026 23:18

Surely for a timeless entity everything is happening all at once so to speak?

I think to be a proper atheist you'd have to believe in the many worlds interpretation of quantum physics - so we get to live in a Goldilocks Universe with all the right Conditions. And with the massive odds against life magicked away. And of course many scientists do -; although there is no evidence for it. I'd like to believe in it too , makes for great science fiction for one thing.

In the meantime I'll remain a boring agnostic I think.

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The only requirement to be an atheist is to lack a belief in gods. There's no obligation I'm aware of that I also need to hold a particular view of quantum physics. Who told you otherwise?

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 06/01/2026 07:13

GarlicSound · 06/01/2026 00:12

I rather like this.

Given the Augustine of Hippo summary I've just read, creation was instantaneous, with the six days of Genesis representing a temporal unfolding, not literal 24-hour periods, but rather seminal causes of all things brought forth by God at once in the beginning ... time itself created with the world, not before it.

If we totally ignore the fact that the events of the 'creation' are not sequential causes, it presents an interesting concept of god. The photon is a packet of energy for which time and space are non-existent. When it hits something, it has an effect. Augustine seems to see his god as like an energy package travelling at light speed, which smashed into the Earth, releasing the elements that would become the planet as we know it.

This would, of course, mean the god-energy-package no longer exists. It would've instantaneously become part of the stuff it created, not hung around like one Bart Simpson's farts. It's a lovely idea but, sadly, inconsistent with the rest of the church's teachings.

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While that is indeed poetic, is there any particular reason someone should ascribe to Augustine's idea of creation rather than anyone else's?

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 07:14

Unicorndreams24 · 04/01/2026 23:14

i have recently been thinking a lot about religion and wondering how many believe in god and also what made you come to the decision of believing?

That’s a very personal question, but I’m happy to answer briefly — I do believe in God. I’ve come to faith through Jesus and the message of grace and reconciliation at the heart of the gospel. In simple terms, it’s the good news that God meets us in our brokenness and offers eternal life through Jesus. I’ve personally found that walking through life with this hope has been deeply comforting, especially in times of deep suffering. And something to look forward to! I appreciate this is a personal response, and hope that your searching leads you to peace.

Parker231 · 06/01/2026 07:23

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 06/01/2026 07:10

The only requirement to be an atheist is to lack a belief in gods. There's no obligation I'm aware of that I also need to hold a particular view of quantum physics. Who told you otherwise?

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I know how the universe was created and it was nothing to do with any god but don’t spend any time thinking about quantum physics!
Very happy with life as an atheist- straightforward with no pressure to worship any unworthy gods.

GarlicSound · 06/01/2026 07:41

GasperyJacquesRoberts · 06/01/2026 07:13

While that is indeed poetic, is there any particular reason someone should ascribe to Augustine's idea of creation rather than anyone else's?

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A PP just before you ridiculed my questions about 'creation' by saying Augustine shot them all down 2000 years ago (!?) He used the timeless get-out clause: "If it doesn't match what humans know from science, it's an allegory".

RedTagAlan · 06/01/2026 07:58

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 07:14

That’s a very personal question, but I’m happy to answer briefly — I do believe in God. I’ve come to faith through Jesus and the message of grace and reconciliation at the heart of the gospel. In simple terms, it’s the good news that God meets us in our brokenness and offers eternal life through Jesus. I’ve personally found that walking through life with this hope has been deeply comforting, especially in times of deep suffering. And something to look forward to! I appreciate this is a personal response, and hope that your searching leads you to peace.

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Look forward to what ?

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 08:15

RedTagAlan · 06/01/2026 07:58

Look forward to what ?

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Heaven — I know not everyone believes this, but it is my personal faith and hope. I was answering the OP’s original question of what makes me believe in God.

Parker231 · 06/01/2026 08:43

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 08:15

Heaven — I know not everyone believes this, but it is my personal faith and hope. I was answering the OP’s original question of what makes me believe in God.

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What is heaven in your opinion? How do you think it can exist?
I don’t think it exists anymore than hell does.

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 09:11

Parker231 · 06/01/2026 08:43

What is heaven in your opinion? How do you think it can exist?
I don’t think it exists anymore than hell does.

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Biblically, I understand heaven as eternal life in restored relationship with God through Christ, and hell as separation from God. I appreciate that not everyone shares my belief, and it’s not intended to cause hurt; I was simply responding, as humbly as I can, to the OP’s original question from my own Christian faith.

Mischance · 06/01/2026 09:12

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 07:14

That’s a very personal question, but I’m happy to answer briefly — I do believe in God. I’ve come to faith through Jesus and the message of grace and reconciliation at the heart of the gospel. In simple terms, it’s the good news that God meets us in our brokenness and offers eternal life through Jesus. I’ve personally found that walking through life with this hope has been deeply comforting, especially in times of deep suffering. And something to look forward to! I appreciate this is a personal response, and hope that your searching leads you to peace.

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I am glad this idea gives you comfort.

But a divine being had many choices available when creating. They could have created a world based on harmony but instead chose to base it on kill or be killed. They could have created beings without "brokenness" who did not need picking up. They could have created a whole different world that did not involve suffering and physical pain.

If your faith helps you get through life then that is lovely and I wish you well.

GentleSheep · 06/01/2026 09:15

RedTagAlan · 06/01/2026 02:59

This is all very nice, but now Mr Sarfati needs to go back and do it all again, because there are 2 different creation accounts in Genesis.

And the God, has different names. There is Elohim, and there is YHWH.

And the whole sun thing makes no sense anyway. The big bang model has no light at the start. That comes after, at the photon epoch. And there was certainly no deep water.

I won't go through your whole post, But just consider this bit, for example. Quote " And God made the two great lights—the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night—and the stars.". The moon is not a light. It reflects the light from the sun. This is an example of a glaring mistake that can't be hand waved away.

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Sarfati does in fact go through it all again! Genesis 2:4 onwards recaptulates Gen 1:1 - 2:3 but concentrates on the creation of the first human couple. Thus it mainly expands on Day Six, where we also see the first instance of the compound divine name YHWH-Elohim.

In Gen 1:1 God reveals His name as Elohim (which is plural, something the English translation can't convey) and in Gen 2:4 YHWH. God is also El Elyon (God most high) Gen 14:18-22, El Roi (God of Seeing) Gen 16:13, El Shaddai (God Almighty) Gen. 17:1 and several others, but you get the idea. Elohim being plural reveals the plurality of the Godhead, fully revealed as the Trinity in the New Testament. Closely related to this is the dual nature of Christ, fully God and fully Man.

Not sure why the Big Bang model is coming into this, it's not part of the Bible and doesn't need to agree with it!

The 'two great lights' part - where does it say both objects must be emitting light? This isn't a mistake. How is the moon 'not a light'? That actually confuses me. It still provides light, regardless of whether it's by reflection?

Btw this book, The Genesis Account, is very detailed, going into the Hebrew words and grammatical sense and offering a lot of scientific and logical detail. Too much to even try to summarise.

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 09:33

Thank you for the kindness and for sharing your view; I appreciate that and it was said with care and respect. From the Bible’s point of view, the world was created good and in harmony, and suffering isn’t how it was meant to be — it’s the result of human rebellion and broken relationship with God, not God’s original design. My faith is rooted in the hope that God enters that brokenness to restore what was lost. It may not be what other faiths or those of no faith believe, but what I believe. I do feel so grateful that we are allowed to trust in different choices and beliefs.

Mischance · 06/01/2026 09:52

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 09:33

Thank you for the kindness and for sharing your view; I appreciate that and it was said with care and respect. From the Bible’s point of view, the world was created good and in harmony, and suffering isn’t how it was meant to be — it’s the result of human rebellion and broken relationship with God, not God’s original design. My faith is rooted in the hope that God enters that brokenness to restore what was lost. It may not be what other faiths or those of no faith believe, but what I believe. I do feel so grateful that we are allowed to trust in different choices and beliefs.

Do you believe that before Jesus was born the whole world was based on something other than kill or be killed, or that there were no worms that burrow into babies' eyes in Africa and make them blind? That all this was caused my humankind being bad?

If there were an all-powerful creator they made some pretty grim choices ..........

Parker231 · 06/01/2026 10:06

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 09:33

Thank you for the kindness and for sharing your view; I appreciate that and it was said with care and respect. From the Bible’s point of view, the world was created good and in harmony, and suffering isn’t how it was meant to be — it’s the result of human rebellion and broken relationship with God, not God’s original design. My faith is rooted in the hope that God enters that brokenness to restore what was lost. It may not be what other faiths or those of no faith believe, but what I believe. I do feel so grateful that we are allowed to trust in different choices and beliefs.

The world is not in its current mess due to a broken relationship with god. Non believers are no more guilty than those with a faith

RedTagAlan · 06/01/2026 11:11

GentleSheep · 06/01/2026 09:15

Sarfati does in fact go through it all again! Genesis 2:4 onwards recaptulates Gen 1:1 - 2:3 but concentrates on the creation of the first human couple. Thus it mainly expands on Day Six, where we also see the first instance of the compound divine name YHWH-Elohim.

In Gen 1:1 God reveals His name as Elohim (which is plural, something the English translation can't convey) and in Gen 2:4 YHWH. God is also El Elyon (God most high) Gen 14:18-22, El Roi (God of Seeing) Gen 16:13, El Shaddai (God Almighty) Gen. 17:1 and several others, but you get the idea. Elohim being plural reveals the plurality of the Godhead, fully revealed as the Trinity in the New Testament. Closely related to this is the dual nature of Christ, fully God and fully Man.

Not sure why the Big Bang model is coming into this, it's not part of the Bible and doesn't need to agree with it!

The 'two great lights' part - where does it say both objects must be emitting light? This isn't a mistake. How is the moon 'not a light'? That actually confuses me. It still provides light, regardless of whether it's by reflection?

Btw this book, The Genesis Account, is very detailed, going into the Hebrew words and grammatical sense and offering a lot of scientific and logical detail. Too much to even try to summarise.

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And this is where thing's don't get better at all. Because while you confidently state the difference between YHWH and Elohim, there are other theories put forward by scholars. For example, that there were 2 different god stories that were combined. This is backed up by the story changing when the different names are used ( the 2 genesis stories for example). Then there is the view that the name changed as the religion grew. A political thing really, Yahweh replacing Elohim, because it implies "over all", rather than a local tribe. Then of course there is Adonai that came later, because Yahweh was considered too sacred to say.

But there is no definitive answer to this Iron age mess.

Quote : "The 'two great lights' part - where does it say both objects must be emitting light? This isn't a mistake. How is the moon 'not a light'? That actually confuses me. It still provides light, regardless of whether it's by reflection?"

Because the moon is not a light. But the bible says it is. It's iron age man not knowing how the solar system works. Because the Bible is a series of stories written by iron age men to try to explain the world around them.

It's your choice, I suppose, to be confused on the difference between a light source and a reflective surface ( although the moon is not very reflective). And your apparent confusion is an example of how religion has held back humanity for thousands of years. Because to say the simple words " the Bible is wrong" could have very bad results. Let's go to the stoning.

After all, here is this entity who just designed all the universe, and he appears to not know how light works. And he wont take the time to explain it to the people he has just created.

ByLovingTraybake · 06/01/2026 11:16

Mischance · 06/01/2026 09:52

Do you believe that before Jesus was born the whole world was based on something other than kill or be killed, or that there were no worms that burrow into babies' eyes in Africa and make them blind? That all this was caused my humankind being bad?

If there were an all-powerful creator they made some pretty grim choices ..........

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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate that Christians hold different views on why the world is the way it is, and how sin operates from the fall. I also personally understand Jesus as God, so for me there isn’t really a “before”, but I was mainly responding to the OP’s question about my faith. If the OP has any further questions, I’d be delighted to try to answer as best as I can — please feel free to drop me a direct message if that would be useful and if I can share anything that has directed me on my journey to faith.