Do you believe in god?

[Unicorndreams24]

i have recently been thinking a lot about religion and wondering how many believe in god and also what made you come to the decision of believing?

Yes. The Sanhedrin - regional Jewish government, religious tribunal - worked closely with Pilate, in keeping with Roman policy for occupied territory. There was widespread discontent, mainly about taxes, and sporadic uprisings. The Sanhedrin were supposed to keep a lid on this but they weren't wildly popular either. They had a sort of religious police force, which went around arresting people for wearing the wrong clothes or missing prayers, etc.

Consequently, wandering preachers - which were a feature throughout the ancient world - gained a lot of traction with Judaeans, especially if they were proposing a nicer, kinder way to live (with fewer taxes). Highly charismatic preachers were always very popular; I don't know if Jesus of Nazareth was a real person, but the description's very much of a wanderer with radical ideas and star quality.

The Sanhedrin were pissed off. This guy (whoever he was) was undermining their authority and, worse, claiming that he was the highest authority. He was a rabble rouser, and they liked their rabble quiet. They complained to Pilate about him, then arrested him and brought him to trial by priests. Having found him guilty, they took him over to Pilate for further questioning. They demanded the death sentence.

Pilate spoke to Jesus and the priests, then said he saw no guilt in the man. Cue angry priests and crowds. Pilate needed to stay on reasonably good terms with them, so turned the final decision over to them, 'washing his hands' of the case. I imagine him walking off whistling, like David Cameron after Brexit!

Wikipedia has two summary pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanhedrin_trial_of_Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate%27s_court

... this doesn't mean Pilate was on the preacher's side, it's more likely he just didn't care. Rome recalled him a few years later for excessive brutality in this duties.

Glad you enjoyed the conversation.

My purpose wasn’t to write a thesis on the subject of slavery, as interesting as that might be, just to address the mistaken idea that “God loves you to suffer”.

I find very lengthy posts rather tedious, and so I try not to go down rabbit-holes but stay on the matter in hand, if possible. There was no intention to engage in “revisionism by omission”.

HTH. :-)

The reasons for the death of Christ is such a huge subject.

There were forces on the human plane- political, national, religious but ultimately all these were overshadowed and encompassed by the plan and purpose of YHWH which He first announced to the serpent in the Garden immediately after the catastrophic rupture between humanity and God -

“And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will crush your head, and you will strike His heel.” Genesis 3:15

Earlier on this thread I mentioned Genesis 50:20 where Joseph consoled his brothers that their wicked actions were actually used by God for the saving of many lives.

In the death of Christ we see that pattern play out on a cosmic scale. The wicked actions of Judas, the Sanhedrin & their associates, Pilate, the mob - all subsumed into a divine purpose- the saving of many lives, eternally.

edited for typo

I think it is also worth mentioning the pigs.

In Mark 5, when the wandering Rabbi comes across a herd of pigs being farmed, he drove them into the water and killed them. But of course, it was explained as Jesus driving unclean spirits from a man (Legion) into the swine.

It was a very clear message that Jesus was enforcing Mosaic law at the start. Don't eat pig.

And with Markian priority in mind, you can see the story shrink a little in Mat and Luke. No mention of it at all in John as I recall.

Interesting article linked below about earlier pig bones. Not specifically about Legion, but it does show that the Priests did have problems getting people to follow their law.

This little piggy went to Jerusalem 2,700 years ago, raising some questions | The Times of Israel

That’s an interesting archeological article in the Times of Israel. Thanks.

Regarding the exorcism of Legion, the region where this happened was the Greco-Roman Decapolis, where one would not expect Jewish food laws to be applicable.

HTH :-)

Interesting thing about the serpent in Genesis is that it appears not to be a serpent when it tempted eve in Gen: 3:1

Because it appears to not be a serpent till later.

Gen 3:14 "And YHWH God says to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed [are] you above all the livestock, and above every beast of the field: on your belly you go, and dust you eat, [for] all days of your life;" (LSV)

Did it have legs before?

And of course, snakes don't eat dust.

This is just yet another example of errors/ inconsistencies, in the Bible.

There is hardly any chapter without issues like this.

Doesn't that underline the fact that religion was invented largely as a means of control of an uneducated population? Because actually most of us are morally self sufficient. We don't need belief in a higher being to give us that moral framework - as can be seen in civilisations that go back tens of millennia before the stories of christ.

I completely get that some people need a reason to do the right thing, and want to believe that there is more to life than we are born, we live, we die - and if religion fills that gap or need then that's great. But for me the amazing opportunity to live for 70/80/90 years or whatever on what is still fundamentally a beautiful planet in a community with people around me that I enjoy spending time with and that, where I can , help and support, is purpose, satisfaction and reward enough :)

A fascinating little insight into the nature of “the serpent”. Thanks for raising it.

Yes, prior to the curse it did not use its belly as its mode of movement- did it have wings? legs? We are not told. The curse cast it down to the lowest possible place on earth, with its mouth near the ground.

I’m reminded of other passages where Satan is thrown out of Heaven and is cast down to the earth.

But the mention of dust as the source of this creature’s sustenance has greater meaning, in my opinion.

The animals and Adam were made from dust. And Adam is told “to dust you will return”. It’s a potent restatement of the warning “you shall surely die”. The very denial of which was the serpent’s hook to lead Adam into rebellion.

So now YHWH tells the serpent aka Satan that his sole purpose and sustenance, his raison d’être, from here on will be the dust of death, decay, rottenness. Not the heights of glory and honour to which Satan had enviously and blasphemously aspired. And ultimately he will taste death himself.
(See Revelation 20 vs10 & 14)

There’s more to the dust than meets the eye!

You’re over complicating a straightforward question. He was a regular guy and got into trouble and got the punishment of the times. He wasn’t unique - I’m sure others faced the same fate.

Yup. Just read what the bible actually says, and listen less to the folk who tell you what it means. It's a mixed up mess. In my opinion anyway, but don't listen to me :-)

As a matter of interest, genuine interest, where does the Bible say this ? Quote "I’m reminded of other passages where Satan is thrown out of Heaven and is cast down to the earth."

I tend to just concentrate in the Pentateuch and the gospels. That bit might be in the middle section ?

I know we won’t agree on who Jesus is / was. But I do think it possible we can agree that “regular guy” is too much of an understatement, even when only looking at secular sources, and leaving the scriptures to one side.

This will interest some, I’m sure.

“…both Josephus and Lucian indicate that Jesus was regarded as wise. Second, Pliny, the Talmud, and Lucian imply He was a powerful and revered teacher. Third, both Josephus and the Talmud indicate He performed miraculous feats. Fourth, Tacitus, Josephus, the Talmud, and Lucian all mention that He was crucified. Tacitus and Josephus say this occurred under Pontius Pilate. And the Talmud declares it happened on the eve of Passover. Fifth, there are possible references to the Christian belief in Jesus' resurrection in both Tacitus and Josephus. Sixth, Josephus records that Jesus' followers believed He was the Christ, or Messiah. And finally, both Pliny and Lucian indicate that Christians worshipped Jesus as God!”

www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources#:~:text=Here%20are%20some%20examples%20of%20evidence%20from,wrote%20about%20Jesus%20in%20his%20Jewish%20Antiquities.

He was a regular guy - a man of the times. Others were teachers, helpers etc. Got into trouble and punished.

“He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.”
Luke 10:18-19 (Christ speaking)

and

“Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child.”
Revelation 12 : 7-13

There are also two prophetic passages in the Tanakh which are regarded as dual references to earthly kings and Satan’s fall- Ezekiel 28:12-19 & Isaiah 14: 12-15

He was certainly a man of his times, I wouldn't say he wasn't special though. I'm not even sure he was called Jesus, was from Nazareth, or that all the stories are about the same person - he could be a symbol of several similar preachers. Not a thing I spend time worrying about.

Disappearing off for years to think and learn stuff, then reappearing as a wandering teacher with amazing tales to tell was an actual occupation in the ancient world. Off the top of my head, two other men who did it and launched lasting new religions are Zarathustra and Buddha. Oh, and Mohammed makes three. I know there were others who made similarly significant impacts. Many Greek philosophers did it. Also hundreds or thousands whose impacts were smaller, but real!

One hypothesis I like is that Jesus went East during his missing years (ie, most of his life), exploring the different cultures and philosophies, landing up with some Buddhists. It dovetails, superficially at least, with his peace message and focus on doing the inner work.

One of the problems with this thread is that believers are justifying/explaining their stance with reference to scripture, and all the non-believers see scripture as invalid/flawed/the writings of individuals from a more primitive time.

So we go nowhere .........

Many of my posts quoting scripture are in response to other posters questions about scripture. One tries to be accommodating!

I’ve also quoted statements by notable scientists and historical secular sources on Christ. You can’t please everyone.

Agreed - no amount of copy and paste/AI is going to turn me into a believer.

The scriptures are just stories - some of them incredibly unrealistic and almost fantasy. Common sense would tell anyone that they can’t be true.

One can recognise the sources that show that Jesus probably existed and also appreciate the metaphors present in some scriptures that might have relevance to how one might live, but there is a huge difference between that and believing in a deity.

And miles to go before one might tack on the idea of a good/benign deity to the being who created this cruel world - and before someone says it is all down to us bad humans, the cruel principles on which the world is predicated were there long before humans appeared.

Yup. This makes me wonder. Because the concept of Satan is barely seen in the OT, apart from Job which is non story line. Then all of a sudden he appears in the NT, just as it appears that god becomes all loving, rather than petty and vengeful.

And no back story about where he came from.

But the books of Enoch, which were not included in the Bible, do have the back story. And that is the one referenced in the NT. Therefore, it appears the Books of Enoch were known about then. But the Christian Church left them out.

Link here to Enoch.

The Book of Enoch Index | Internet Sacred Text Archive (sacred-texts.com)

You know about the book of Enoch but weren’t aware of the New Testament references about Satan being cast down? Ok.

@Mischance, @Parker231, I don't think anyone's trying to convert anybody on this thread. It's an exchange of views.

I was aware of references in the NT, but I was not aware of this, "I’m reminded of other passages where Satan is thrown out of Heaven and is cast down to the earth."

I honestly could not remember seeing that. And TBH, I ain't a fan of revelation and I struggle reading it. But your revelation quote looks close enough.

My interest is what people think the bible says against what it does say.

An interesting exchange of views - am flabbergasted that some people actually believe all this stuff. It’s like a fantasy adventure story - angels, demons etc

I do not think there are any attempts at conversion and recognise this as an exchange of views - that goes without saying. I am not sure why you might think otherwise.