The Church of Scotland is a spiritual desert

[searchingsearching]

NC for this.

I started attending my local CoS after going through a bit of a difficult time. I enjoyed being able to disconnect from the business of my life, and taking time to pray felt and still feels important but, almost two years down the line, I don’t feel any closer to God or even have an inkling as to why I should want to.

The sermons are long winded and go off in all sorts of tangents without ever getting to the point. Not helped by the minister who seems to try to cram in as many jokes and silly songs as is possible. Maybe it’s just this particular church but there’s just such a lack of depth and substance. Everything is so surface level and childish but the rest of the congregation seem quite happy with it. To me, church should feel sacred and be meaningful.

We’ve been encouraged to attend something called the alpha course so I had a look online and watched the first three installments on YouTube and can safely say I have no interest in it. It was a very sleek but cringy production that felt very Americanised with again, very little substance.

Does anyone else feel like this? Or is it just me? Perhaps a different denomination would suit me better or maybe it’s not Christianity I’m looking for at all.

I wonder if the OP really wanted her thread to turn into a diatribe about Penal Substitutionary Atonement...

The Alpha description of this is far easier to understand.

The more I reflect on it the more arrogant the OP comes across - what a thread title to use, based on her experience of one church. So condescending to the rest of the congregation who seem happy with the services.

@Calmomiletea I wasn’t suggesting that good works or repentance alone can save you. I understand that salvation comes by grace through faith, which is a gift given by God even though we are undeserving, but surely to live for God you must do those things? How do you personally live for God in line with Scripture?

In terms of confession, I read this Coptic Orthodox article which addresses the one mediator between God and men. It states that Christ gave to the Apostles a certain authority - “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” It then goes on to argue (among many other things) that priesthood and confession are a legacy of this and that this was God establishing his Church on earth.

Actually, I’m finding this discussion very interesting @CraftyGin. Much more so than the pushing of a course which I’ve already expressly stated I see very little value in.

I definitely have the propensity for arrogance which isn’t one of my better qualities but I’ve tried to express why I feel like this. I’ve also conceded that if the majority of the congregation are happy, it’s very probably a me problem.

But would you personally be satisfied with goofy jokes and silly songs taking precedence over meaningful worship?

I understand that salvation comes by grace through faith, which is a gift given by God even though we are undeserving, but surely to live for God you must do those things?

OP if you have faith then the outworking of that faith will naturally be good works. If there are no works then it's hardly likely that the person has truly been saved. Of course it's a process, you won't go from 'sinner to saint' overnight, it'll take place over time, for some people it's faster than others. Also you will experience spiritual attacks from the Enemy, every new Christian should be made aware of this. Satan is not well pleased when you accept Jesus as your saviour, so expect some push back.

Would you personally be satisfied with goofy jokes and silly songs taking precedence over meaningful worship?

I have left a Church because it was getting further and further away from good teaching (sermons should enrich your understanding of Scripture! If they don't, there's something wrong) and more towards a lot of singing, a 'fluff' sermon and hardly any liturgy or none at all. I think a lot of modern Anglicanism is about 'feel good' factor and keeping away from any topics that are remotely controversial.

Not really, but I'd just go down the road a bit and find a minister that used a style I preferred. The Church of Scotland would more often be criticised for being stuffy than jokey!
My point still stands that you dislike one individual church and write a post criticising the whole institution. It's like one Asda store manager is rude to you so that means all of Asda employ rude store managers.

I would disagree too.

God went out of his way to make Himself known to Abram (later renamed by God as Abraham) and chose him as the father for what would eventually be millions of descendants. If God had not done this, I expect Abraham would have been yet another Baal worshipper or worshipped another of the myriad pagan gods. God told Abraham he'd make a covenant with him, and gave him clear rules to follow, the blessings that would happen if Abraham and his people kept to those rules, and the curses that would happen if they did not. He also gave them land, the land of Israel. Over time we see all that come to pass in the Torah or the first few books of the Bible. We see the blessings that happened and later on how disobedience led to captivity under other nations.

The alpha description of this is wrong. Alpha teaches an ineffective, universal atonement which is not Biblical. These matters are so important that they require a "diatribe"; eternity is forever: both hell and heaven.

Absolutely @AlteredStater. It’s either jokes and ‘feel good factor’ or, if there’s an attempt at a more serious service, talking in circles and not seeming to know what point he’s actually trying to make.

I’ve attended three CoS churches throughout the course of my life @Crocmush, one which I would consider stuffy, and I felt a real lack of spirituality in all of them. They didn’t feel like holy places. This is obviously subjective but going by the rate of closures, I do think the CoS is possibly facing some very serious issues, which won’t be helped by the sort of soulless, wishy-washy ministry I’ve witnessed imo.

I think this is a misunderstanding of what religion is and how it functions.

Even if you made that claim as an origin of religion, it certainly is not what Genesis is about, as you claimed.

Just as you thinking I am saying Judaism is special or different from other religions is a complete misunderstanding of what I said, and our conversation. I think all religions, and certainly all organised religions, clearly have a function and purpose well above what you claim. It was crystal clear I was referring to Judaism (and Christianity) solely because you spoke about Genesis. I find your reply to me here bordering on anti-Semitic as well as a fundamental failure to understand what being the 'chosen people' means in Judaism. (it means God has given them more rules to follow than non-Jews. They are chosen to follow more rules).

@Greycatblueeyes Of course I'm not being anti-Semitic. I just don't think any of it's true.

Yes, good works will be evident in someone who has been regenerated by the Spirit of God. 'Faith without works is dead' James 2:20; what does this mean? It means that if there are no works then the faith was never God-given saving faith. As that same passage of James explains: 'Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.'. I.e. your faith is not saving faith if there are no works, it's no different really than the belief that the fallen angels have.

Regarding John 20:23, again Scripture interprets Scripture, and it never contradicts itself. In this passage the Resurrected Saviour is sending the apostles out into the world, filled with the Holy Ghost to preach the Gospel. The apostles were not given the power to forgive sins, but were to declare, guided by the Spirit of God, those who had believed and repented and therefore had their sins forgiven and those who had not. If it meant the apostles were endowed with the power in themselves to forgive sins that would be a contradiction of what God had clearly said elsewhere about how sins are forgiven, I.e. 'who can forgive sins but God only?' Mark 2:47. The disciples were being sent out by God to establish the Church - they could never in themselves forgive sins, but were sent with the authority to preach the Gospel and to declare and make clear how reconciliation with God can be made, on what grounds it happens. As Peter says in Acts 10:42,43 'And he [God] commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he [Jesus] which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall have remission [forgiveness] of sins'. The apostles never taught that they themselves could forgive sins - if that is what they were authorised to do then they would have taught that and we would read about it, but they never did because that would be usurping the authority of God. And it would be a load of nonsense also - sorry - but it is so audacious and prideful for a sinful human being to believe/declare/teach that they have the authority to forgive someone else's sins.
The very claim is an evidence that that person themselves does not understand the corruption of their own heart or the sinfulness of sin. Again, God makes it plan: 'who can forgive sins but God only' Mark 2:47.
I could go on, but I'll rest my "diatribe" there!

Good works are also evident in non-Christians - people who are made in the image of God.

The apostles were not given the power to forgive sins, but were to declare, guided by the Spirit of God, those who had believed and repented and therefore had their sins forgiven and those who had not. @Calmomiletea

But this is essentially what a priest does (in Orthodoxy at least) because you don’t confess to them but rather in their presence.

Again, what do you do that you can claim to live for God? I’m not being antagonistic, just genuinely curious. I just think a call to faith must also be a call to action, to prayer, to love, to humility.

Also, what Bible do you read? Your comment about Scriptures never contradicting themselves is interesting because they’ve obviously gone through myriad translations and alterations over 2000 years, allowing for different interpretations. If it’s one of the newer versions, how can you be so sure that it’s the true word of God?

@Calmomiletea Someone above posted about how we shouldn't expect much teaching/theology from a sermon

Hiya @Calmomiletea 😀 That may have been me? (hence quickly popping back in 🤓 as I may have been misunderstood ) We should always expect good, sound, teaching and preaching - I could not agree more. Preaching and teaching should challenge us to reflect in our heart and encourage our prayer life and Bible study … my point was that, sadly, sometimes, it just tickles ears and continues a myth of gentle Jesus, meek and mild, and IF the OP was truly seeking Christ Jesus ( and I took the OP at its face-value ) and using only their experience of attending a church to do that, but finding the experience to be ‘valueless’ (my interpretation) then … well, the rest is as written.

Having removed myself from the thread because I could see it becoming yet another tedious ping pong game about sky fairies, it has become clear it was my bad to take the opening post at face value as, perhaps, it was more a desire to knock a certain style of doing church?

My take on that is that we are all uniquely made, and what suits one may not suit another : Hence, to find a ‘best fit’.

ps. If He was gentle Jesus meek and mild, he would not have suffered the torture and abuse and mocking and cruelty that we ponder during this time of leading up to celebrating His Victory over death and sin. 🎶 Then bursting forth, on glorious day, out from the grave He rose again 🎶 Sorry, gone off at a tangent ☺️

Non-christians can certainly do acts of kindness to their fellow human beings, but these are not done unto God, as Romans 8:8 says: 'those who are in the flesh cannot please God.' And 'there is none that doeth good, no, not one' Romans 3:12. The purpose of true good works is that God would be glorified. An unregenerate heart that is dead in trespasses and sins will do "good works" for its own glory, not for God's glory. 'The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?' Jeremiah 17:9.

The RC Church absolutely teaches that it has the power to absolve sins - setting itself/the priests setting themselves up in the place of Christ.

'Again, what do you do that you can claim to live for God?'. When I was 27, single, and wanting to be married, God called me to go into Bible college so that I could be trained to teach women and children. It was not what I wanted to do, but I knew that if God was leading me that way I had to do it, and I know His will is best.
After Bible college He called me to a totally different part of the country to serve. You might say I have left home and family for Him. But as C.T. Studd said: 'if Jesus Christ be God and died for me, then no sacrifice can be too great for me to make for Him'. I love God poorly, but He never fails. I am not paid for what I do, but I know my reward is in heaven, and 'love so amazing, so divine, demands my life, my soul, my all'.
To be blunt, f God had not intervened in my life I believe I would be dead from suicide: I owe Him everything.

Bible versions? I use a translation that came straight from the Hebrew and Greek. I believe in the use of the Textus Receptus for Bible translation. The dead Sea scrolls are one example of the harmony of ancient manuscripts.

You cannot say/believe that all good works done by non-born-again-Christians are done for their "own glory". People can do good works for selfish reasons, but they can also do them for reasons of kindness and love. And surely when they help a stranger they are helping God? (Sheep and goats)

@Calmomiletea I was talking about the Orthodox Church. Sacrificing your own wants to fulfil God’s will is very noble and I’m glad you feel his love has saved you and given you everything you need. But I’m not sure it really answered my question.

I think one of the reasons Orthodoxy appeals to me is that it requires action on your behalf. Frequent and mindful prayer, fasting, confession, as well as loving your neighbour and your enemy, etc. It’s a way of showing gratitude and humility for the amazing but totally undeserved love God has given us, and while nothing we do will make us worthy of it, we should never stop striving to be.

I can’t agree at all that non-Christians only do good works for their own glory. That’s an extremely uncharitable position and just demonstrably not true. Do you not think it might also be God working through them as a way of trying to call them to faith?

This is why I jumped into this thread.

I don't have a particular horse in this race, as I am Church of England, although did grow up in the Church of Scotland.

I am really critical of my own church, and seem to spend a lot of time moaning about this, that and the other. This is to DH, who is also a church officer. But I love it, warts and all.

With respect, @searchingsearching I'm sensing the Bible is not your final authority - is that true?

As I’m not a Christian, no. Does the bible not say we should pray, fast and confess?

With respect, if you’re unable or don’t wish to answer my questions directly then I see no point in engaging further.

Sorry, I am a lurker here and perhaps should not comment, but @searchingsearching - it sounds like you know what you want, or where you are being drawn- why don’t you look for an Orthodox church? Is there something holding you back?

Of course you can comment @Leskovac. I actually found an Orthodox Church which conducts services in English and contacted them about attending a service. Just waiting to hear back!