The Church of Scotland is a spiritual desert

[searchingsearching]

NC for this.

I started attending my local CoS after going through a bit of a difficult time. I enjoyed being able to disconnect from the business of my life, and taking time to pray felt and still feels important but, almost two years down the line, I don’t feel any closer to God or even have an inkling as to why I should want to.

The sermons are long winded and go off in all sorts of tangents without ever getting to the point. Not helped by the minister who seems to try to cram in as many jokes and silly songs as is possible. Maybe it’s just this particular church but there’s just such a lack of depth and substance. Everything is so surface level and childish but the rest of the congregation seem quite happy with it. To me, church should feel sacred and be meaningful.

We’ve been encouraged to attend something called the alpha course so I had a look online and watched the first three installments on YouTube and can safely say I have no interest in it. It was a very sleek but cringy production that felt very Americanised with again, very little substance.

Does anyone else feel like this? Or is it just me? Perhaps a different denomination would suit me better or maybe it’s not Christianity I’m looking for at all.

“My sins have all been paid for by Christ - I could do nothing to have them removed/forgiven myself: it is all Christ. His perfect life meant He was a sufficient substitute. Hallelujah, what a Saviour!”

I absolutely agree with this statement. There’s nobody comparable to the beautiful Saviour, Jesus Christ our Lord.

It seems that nothing is good enough for the OP. Sermons are too long, with cheesy jokes and songs. OTOH, Alpha is too sleek - just the opposite.

You are never going to get a lot of 'theology' in a sermon. A sermon expounds on maybe 10 verses of scripture - not the whole of the revealed faith.

Alpha is a beginners', pre-catechetical course. It is probably the most successful tool in this generation for bringing people to faith. It's not meant to be watched, alone, on YouTube. It is designed to be watched/listened to in fellowship with other seekers, hence the meal together. And, most importantly, every talk is followed up with a discussion where you can ask questions, say what you disagree with, etc.

Church is not just about what happens for an hour or so on a Sunday morning, and even there, the actual teaching is only a part of the meeting. Church happens 7 days a week. If you want to dig deeper, join a study group or home group. It's easier to do this if you already have a broad overview of the faith, through Alpha, Christianity Explored etc.

You have to be an active participant in the Christian faith. You won't be satisfied with the hope that you can sit in a pew for an hour a week and everything is served to you on a platter.

Learn about how the bible is constructed - I recommend reading the Lion Children's Bible where you can get a whistlestop tour of the main stories and how they fit together. Then you need to do some study - if you are doing it on your own, then I recommend something like the Bible in 30 Days (Alpha), where you can read a passage, understand what it means in the context in which it was written, and what it means in our lives today.

It seems that nothing is good enough for the OP. Sermons are too long, with cheesy jokes and songs. OTOH, Alpha is too sleek - just the opposite.

You’re cherry picking and misrepresenting what I’ve said @CraftyGin. I understand that a Sunday service isn’t going to cover absolutely everything but surely a stimulating and meaningful sermon isn’t too much to ask for? I wouldn’t care how long they were if that were the case. Are cheesy jokes and songs really going to engage serious adults? Not for me. I’m not asking for anything to be handed to me on a platter either - I’ve already stated I’ve been doing my own research, hence the interest in Orthodoxy.

Yes, the way the alpha course is presented is sleek but the content is simplistic and childish and listening to it in fellowship won’t change that. I don’t want to feel like I’m being patronised.

You can disagree with all of that but to say ‘nothing is good enough for OP’ when I’m seeking advice and explaining my feelings is just goady and disingenuous. Thankfully, others have been far more helpful and understanding.

I completely agree with the OP, Alpha doesn't stand up to much intellectual scrutiny at all. It begins by using rather dubious evidence about the trustworthiness of the Bible to create the notion that everything in it is true, and then uses very carefully selected verses to try and build the case for one very particular form of Christian belief, that is far from universal, and has only actually existed since about the 1930s. The Holy Spirit stuff is nothing short of deliberately manipulative.

Quality of sermons is a difficult one, if you have a mixed range of age, experience and ability in your congregation you're never going to please everyone.

Op would you be happy to share the general area you're in? Would be happy to recommend a church if it's a general area I know of.
What you've described doesn't surprise me quite typical for CofS but there are plenty of churches where you would hear systematic preaching which would go through the passage systematically with depth that you're looking for.

Different perspective on Alpha - we (DP and I) did it about six years ago and found it good. We’re still in touch with some of the group members and became good friends. I think the course materials themselves are relatively unimportant and what matters is the quality of your group leaders and whether you gel with the other group members. For someone who is spiritually “seeking” and interested in going deeper into Christianity (albeit a very particular branch of Christianity) I think it’s worth a go.

@searchingsearching There are resources on YouTube that you may be interested in. Bishop Robert Barron talks on many scriptural subjects in depth, but in an understandable way

‘ The Chosen’ a program about the New Testament available through Amazon Prime/ The Chosen App is also a good way to learn about Jesus and the Apostles. On the Chosen App there’s a section called Bible Study (I think). There’s discussions about each episode held between an Evangelist, Messianic Jew and a Catholic Priest or Bishop. I found it really interesting- especially the viewpoint of the Messianic Jew as he relates links between the Old and New Testaments

I agree that you’re not going to get everything from one Mass or Service. But I also think it’s important to go. In Catholicism both Jeff Cavins and Scott Hahn have written excellent books about the Bible and about interpreting/ understanding it. Jeff Cavins was Catholic then Protestant (a pastor) and now is Catholic again. Scott Hahn converted after reluctantly going to Mass one day - just for research (he was a firm Protestant and expected to hate it all). Instead he was amazed at how much scripture is included in the Mass.

Churches often have groups that can deepen your Faith as well as going up services. Both are important. As well as prayer, alms giving and acting out your Faith in real life (good deeds).

I’d say the vast majority of the congregation are between 50-75. A handful of people in their 30s and 40s. There are 1 or 2 young children who attend with their parents every now and again but not every week. As I said, most people seem happy enough and laugh along with his never ending jokes so it’s obviously a me problem @PrimitivePerson. It’s almost like he really wanted to be a pop star or comedian but settled for being a minister so he has a built in weekly audience.

Thank you @BourbonBiscuits20. I’m able to travel throughout Glasgow and Lanarkshire.

The tron church Glasgow could be a good option (it's not the one on Buchanan st), they have 3 locations one west side, one central and one south side which are on their website: www.tron.church
Also St Silas in the west end of Glasgow
Harper church in the south end also good option
Hamilton Baptist is another if that's any closer to you

Is it south or north Lanarkshire?

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply @BourbonBiscuits20 but evangelical churches just aren’t what I’m looking for at all. I think I said up thread that I think I need to look outwith Presbyterianism in general.

I’m going to attend a RC mass and there’s also a couple of Orthodox churches in Glasgow I’m going to look into.

Maybe that's your problem.

The Church of Scotland is extremely evangelical.

Re: jokes, etc.

I am currently responsible for recruitment of a new minister. In preparation for this task, I have looked at what other churches say about themselves and their "person spec".

Most ask for a new minister that has a good sense of humour...

If the church you attend is similar in this regard, then it sounds like they got what they asked for.

Digested read: God hates gays.

Basically it's quoting from a script.

I don't understand why you conclude that ritual in an Episcopalian church would be empty, but not in an Orthodox or RC Church?

I was replying to the pp who said there’s more ritual in Episcopalian churches compared to CoS, but they tend to be socially liberal. Sort of playing pretend at being Catholic or Orthodox without the reverence.

As if all Episcopalian churches are of the catholic wing...They actually come in all churchmanships, even in Scotland.

I can only judge what you 'know' based on what you say when your reveal your ' 'knowledge'.

Your claims to appeal to your authority don't tell me anything.

Yes, there’s definitely an evangelical undercurrent with some happy clappy hands in the air type stuff at my church @CraftyGin. Perhaps the congestion did want a minister with a good sense of humour but whoever selected my current one has a very different definition of that phrase than me.

To be clear, I’m not against humour in the service but relentless Christmas cracker type jokes every week is beyond tedious and doesn’t feel at all appropriate.

I do know exactly how evangelical churches do things, from bitter experience.

Also, Christianity has no unique claims to absolute truth or being the one true religion.

I agree with this. I did not agree with what Alpha teaches at all, even the leaders of our Alpha course I did, did not agree with much of what it said.

The value of Alpha was when you go into the groups after the talk (and meal) and get a chance to ask any questions you like, with nothing off limits. I love a good discussion and really enjoyed this.

I'm sure you do. But your claim was that the book of Genesis is about why the sun rises and Genesis simply is not about that.

Well, I know there's more to it than that, but what I meant was essentially the origins of Judaism are exactly the same as the origins of Wicca, or any other faith - an attempt to explain the mysteries of the world.

Again, if it wasn’t plainly obvious, I wasn’t making a value judgement on all Episcopalian Churches but simply replying to another poster’s description.

I find this is a really strange conclusion to draw - why would being "socially liberal" mean that the rituals of an Anglo-Catholic church are in some way empty or irreverent? Is there some hidden link between incense and homophobia that I wasn’t aware of?