The Church of Scotland is a spiritual desert

[searchingsearching]

NC for this.

I started attending my local CoS after going through a bit of a difficult time. I enjoyed being able to disconnect from the business of my life, and taking time to pray felt and still feels important but, almost two years down the line, I don’t feel any closer to God or even have an inkling as to why I should want to.

The sermons are long winded and go off in all sorts of tangents without ever getting to the point. Not helped by the minister who seems to try to cram in as many jokes and silly songs as is possible. Maybe it’s just this particular church but there’s just such a lack of depth and substance. Everything is so surface level and childish but the rest of the congregation seem quite happy with it. To me, church should feel sacred and be meaningful.

We’ve been encouraged to attend something called the alpha course so I had a look online and watched the first three installments on YouTube and can safely say I have no interest in it. It was a very sleek but cringy production that felt very Americanised with again, very little substance.

Does anyone else feel like this? Or is it just me? Perhaps a different denomination would suit me better or maybe it’s not Christianity I’m looking for at all.

I don't agree with that. I think the reasons why religion are many and multi-fold. Religious beliefs provide a way of unifying a group of humans once our social groups grew past family units. This is, in my opinion, one of the core functions of religion, to unit people amongst a group of shared beliefs. Our ability to unify over a set of abstract beliefs is undoubtedly one of the evolved traits of humans that enabled us to form large and cohesive social groups.

If one reads the Jewish Bible it is absolutely not a series of Aesop's fables. Its central focus is very clearly on other issues.

Wiccan and Paganism are very, very different religions from Judaism.

I stand by my assertion - all religions essentially have the same purpose. They explain things in different ways, but ultimately it's an attempt to explain the mysterious.

Judaism is only special or distinct if you believe that Jews really are God's chosen people. If you don't, it has the same status as any other religion you happen to have rejected.

This is just a boring derail of the thread.

Socially liberal isn’t a synonym for gay as far as I’m aware.

I’ll preface this by saying I don’t care if someone is a Christian and socially liberal or gay or whatever. Everyone is free to choose the path that makes them happy or gives their life meaning. However, I think that indulging in the pomp and ceremony akin to Orthodoxy and RC when your religious practice is so far removed from them absolutely is empty. Why keep the ritual when you’ve discarded so much else? It’s performative at best.

Why are you dismissing ritual as empty? You seem to be making a lot of assumptions.

You said in your Op that you were looking for the sacred and meaningful. This is what the congregants of churches that place emphasis on the sacraments and ritual find in those rituals. They are meaningful and bring a full sense of the sacred, of reverence, of the Holy Spirit. That’s often why the congregants are regulars st those churches and not other flavours of church.

If that’s not your bag then fair enough, ans there are many other types of church to choose from. But making assumptions that veer on the sneering about others and their relationship with God isn’t very pleasant.

I second the PP who suggested looking for a local Anglo-Catholic church. It is always there that I have found my favourite sermons - the ones that give me something that I might not have thought have myself, and explain something I didn't know. I also find the music and the ritual extraordinarily uplifting - particularly now during Lent. An Anglo-Catholic church will have extra services in Holy Week, including vigils. Historically, they have been the services in which I have felt closest to Christ - and Mary.

I’ve already explained why I would consider rituals by certain denominations to be empty and I absolutely wasn’t sneering - it was genuine bafflement. I also know that people are free to choose how to worship and which church works for them and gives them meaning. It’s obviously a very personal thing. This thread is mostly me thinking out loud and trying to make sense of my own perception.

How can sacraments like the Eucharist/Communion be sacred and hold reverence if the church itself deviates from Christian doctrine where it sees fit? Even the CoS I attend, for example, has Communion every so often but doesn’t have confession, or any real focus on repentance for that matter. It’s the cherry picking I’m trying to work through and decide whether I think there’s a point to it all.

@searchingsearching the Anglo Catholic Churches I have attended/ do attend have confession. And there is an emphasis on repentance in the prayers.

If you want to hear the Word I’d recommend the ‘Bible in a year’ series on YouTube. That’ll help give context and explain it - read by an actual priest who loves God.

I’d also recommend attending catholic services. That branch seems to actually still believe and not try to rewrite the bible to suit.

With respect, I discovered that it was indeed the support and guidance of the Spirit Himself who led me into greater knowledge of Christ after my relationship with Him had begun. I couldn’t have found Him by myself, with or without a church, through an intellectual analysis of church history and dogma under my own steam.

But He found me, and revealed Himself to me through direct interaction and then more fully through the ministry of the Spirit of Truth as stated in John 16:13.

Each and every person in the congregation will have their own take on what’s most meaningful for them. Most Anglo Catholic Churches do offer confession, as they place an emphasis on all of the sacraments.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘Christian doctrine’, as you seem to be talking about it as one fixed, rigid thing, when there’s actually a fair amount of debate between denominations and within them, as to the meaning of the scriptures and even which ones should be included/emphasised.

It feels a bit as if you’re tying yourself up in knots because of a quite rigid way of approaching things. Maybe do some more searching and enquiring for yourself, in a spirit of openness and curiosity, and then the best fit church for you should be more apparent. It will likely be ‘best fit’ rather than a 100% match, and I feel if you approach things with that in mind, and a willingness for tolerance for small differences, you will eventually end up in the right place for you.

I would say again something I mentioned earlier. When things do not speak to us we tend to assume they have no merit. It would be more accurate to say we can’t hear them at the moment, or yet. They are not in a language we find helpful right now.

At a different stage of our life, we can feel very different. Best not to dismiss something which currently isn’t for you.

I suppose I don’t believe all denominations are equal and what others may perceive as small differences, I see as quite significant contradictions.

Debating whether certain scriptures should be included or taught surely calls into question the validity of the faith itself? Who decides what’s included and what’s discarded, and why? If you (general you not you personally) can be selective to suit yourself or to better align with wider society then what’s the point of any of it? How can I be expected to make a commitment to a religion which seems to be so malleable?

Anyway, my plan is to do some further research into RC and Orthodoxy with a view to attending some services.

I ultimately couldn't reconcile all those things. Beliefs and church cultures have changed enormously over the years as well, even within my own lifetime, which makes something of a mockery of the idea that God is unchanging.

There's a lot that's of value in the Bible, but I don't think it's necessary to take every word of it literally to find it, and the way that most evangelicals perceive God strikes me as absolutely abhorrent these days - even if you could prove to me that he's real, I wouldn't worship him, because he's a monster. Personally I have a lot more time for Christians that accept the whole thing is much more of a mystery, and we'll never find all the answers - it feels much more honest than pretending our particular faith tradition has all the answers. I've seen evangelicals tie themselves up in all sorts of theological and intellectual knots trying to justify some absolutely preposterous ideas and beliefs, and I think it's best to stay well out of that, and accept it's all a bit...well...vague.

@searchingsearching I think, fundamentally, you've just got to love your neighbour, and try to live according to the ideals of Christ. We go to church to remind ourselves to love our neighbour, and for self-encouragement to be a better Christian and to strengthen our faith because the community and collective loving of our neighbour(s) matters. Everybody finds different ways to connect - and has different ways in to that connection, to that faith. The actual religion is a construct - and most of it was put together long after Christ lived, died, and rose again. It obviously has value - but it's there to aid our faith and thus our ability and determination to love our neighbour and make the choices we believe to be right (which sometimes is hard.) For me the way in is the beauty of the words and the music and the architecture - and the rituals of Anglo Catholicism - and the sermons I get there. Others don't need a sung mass - or don't need incense. But stripping elements from a service doesn't de-validify the faith.

@searchingsearching "you" is general you/ we not specific you incidentally.

I imagine you do have confession or prayers of repentance in the service liturgy.

As for rituals, for those for whom these are important, it is very much about worshiping Christ with your whole body. I remember once watching a documentary about an Anglo-Catholic church in a dirt-poor area of Liverpool, and it was thriving. The reason the priest said was that the sights and smells were a source of awe and wonder, away from the drudgery of their daily lives.

You'll be hard-pressed to find a church that never has any of these elements, such as candles, at least some times in the year.

I am very leery of churches that rigidly claim to have just one churchmanship - evangelical, catholic, liberal. They cannot possibly provide the fullness of faith.

My church is evangelical, so you will always have good biblical teaching, but we also have the two sacraments, and a little bit of ritual (at different times of the church year). We try to apply our biblical teaching to the challenges of the modern world.

AFAIK, most CofS churches follow the Revised Common Lectionary, which provides readings covering most of the bible over a three year period. Most mainstream denominations follow this around the world. You shouldn't really need to worry about cherry-picking.

Obviously, there are some churches that don't when it's not prescribed, favouring a sermon series, but these are still from the agreed biblical canon (66 books).

Why not just try another C of S? There's loads of them in most towns and cities! You can even view sermons online for lots of them now to see if they fit with your criteria.
The style of sermon will be dependent on the minister's personality. However all C of S ministers will have a degree in theology/divinity (or a post grad) so he is probably more intellectual than he seems!

@searchingsearching there is only one way to know God and that is the way that He Himself has given: through Jesus Christ. No sacraments or rituals can cause you to be a Christian, I mean a true, born-again Christian. Yes anyone can attend church and be a nominal Christian, but not a true, Christian who has supernaturally been born again by the Spirit of God as @LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms stated above about the Spirit of God.
That is why God has recorded for us: 'Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' He does not say 'but by me plus confession to a priest'/'but by me plus try to live as well as you can'/'but by me plus you must do the sacraments'. No. God makes it very clear.

If you try to go via church attendance/church rituals/praying to Mary(a sinner)/good works, etc. you will never know Him. God makes it very clear: 'there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' 1 Timothy 2:5. And His way is: by faith in Jesus Christ's atoning work on the cross as the payment/substitute for your personal sin, and repentance of that sin. Mark 1:14-15: 'Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.'

John 3:7 Jesus said: 'Marvel not that I said unto you: You must be born again'.

There is One way, and note that every other way that is offered to you will involve good works in some form or other, which is contrary to what God says in Ephesians 2:8-9: 'For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: * *Not of works, lest any man should boast.'

Someone above posted about how we shouldn't expect much teaching/theology from a sermon - this is so very wrong. Sound teaching from a church (where the Word of God has not been watered down to suit people who are not truly hungering for the Word of God) will have enough teaching to help you understand week by week what the Bible teaches. And such churches will absolutely have midweek Bible studies where you will be able to further deep dive into theology. God has given certain people the gifts of teaching (Romans 12).

I’d suggest you take a trip over to the Shop of Fools website. You can read “reviews” of local churches in the Mystery Worshiper section and you might be able to get to the heart of what you’re seeking/needing in the forums.

It’s actually Ship of Fools. Strange idea mystery shopping churches.
They’re also mostly in England and I think OP mentioned being in Glasgow area.

@Calmomiletea so literally all you need to do is accept Christ as your saviour and nothing else? Do you not think good works bring you closer to God? Ephesians 2:10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

You don’t have to confess your sins? John 1:9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. Is repentance a one time thing or is it continual through prayer?

The onus isn’t on you to do anything at all, you can live any way you like as long as you proclaim to accept Jesus into your heart?

Apologies - there is also a Shop of Fools section though for quirky religious tat! I put Glasgow into the MW search function and it did come up with a few results.

Yes. Christ and nothing else. Either you put your faith in God's Substitute as being sufficient to atone for you, or you do not believe He is sufficient, and you try to go your own way (add to it). John 10:9 Jesus said: 'I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture'.
John 10:1 ''verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber'.

Romans 6:23 'For the wages of sin is death; but the GIFT of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord'. You do not work for a gift, which is why it is repeated in Ephesians 2 'it is the gift of God. Not of works..'. Why? Because either you believe Christ has paid the payment in full or you don't. And He is to get all the glory: 'Not of works lest any man should boast'. Another verse on this point would be Titus 3:5 'not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost'.

And what you have pointed out about good works is very important.

Good works come AFTER saving faith. True good works are an evidence that someone has been born again/regenerated by the Spirit of God. Good works do not save. Again, just as we cannot save ourselves but Christ receives all the glory for saving us, so too, good works are to be all for the glory of God, not to try to work our salvation. If someone thinks they can save themselves by their own works, these "good works" are as filthy rags, they are not accepted by God for the forgiveness of sins 'without the shedding of blood is no remission/forgiveness': hence why Christ had to die.

In our own fallen nature, we are (as ephesians 2:1 puts it: 'dead in trespasses and sins'. Romans 3:12 says 'there is none that doeth good, no, not one'. Isaiah 53:6 'all we like sheep have gone astray, we have turned everyone to his own way, and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all'.

We cannot cover our own sin, and an unregenerated heart cannot present to God with a sinful heart some bundle of an offering of good works that will merit saving favour. 'Even when we were dead in sins, [God] hath quickened us together with Christ.' Ephesians 2:5.

It is really important when reading Scripture to bear in mind who each passage/letter is addressed to. This epistle to the Ephesians (specifically chapter 2) is addressed to the born again believers, its not addressing people who are not yet born again. So yes, it is speaking to those who have been regenerated/quickened (Ephesians 2:1) and is instructing them that they have been quickened/regenerated FOR the purpose of good works, NOT that they are saved by the good works: it explicitly states to the contrary.

You asked: 'so literally all you need to do is accept Christ as your Saviour and nothing else?'. Saving faith/accepting Christ as your Saviour goes hand in hand with repentance. And again, as per Ephesians 2:8,9, it is not your repentance that saves you, it is by grace through faith which is a gift. True repentance is a saving grace given by God where a sinner, being truly aware of their sinfulness, understands the mercy of God in Christ, and with grief and hatred of their sin, they turn from it unto God, with full purpose and endeavour after new obedience. Luke 24:47 'and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations'; Mark 1:15' repent and believe the gospel'; Luke13:3 'I tell you, nay: but except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish'; Acts 17:30 'And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent'.

In answer to your question about confessing our sins: yes, we are to confess our sins - but not to other mere mortal, sinful men for forgiveness (there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus' 1 Tim 2:5), we are to confess them directly to God, with Christ as the one who mediates for us (I.e. 'no man cometh unto the Father but by me' John 14:6). James 5:16 is referring to confessing our sins for when God has brought an illness on a believer because of their sin, they are to confess that sin to God and to others, that they will be forgiven by God and that they will have the support of fellow believers by their prayers (not that the prayers of others will be a means of their forgiveness - again, only Christ - but that they will be supported): we are taught in many places in Scripture to pray for other believers, for many different reasons, but the prayers of others cannot absolve our sins. Scripture interprets Scripture.

And in answer to your last question 'can you live any way you like as long as you proclaim to accept Jesus into your heart?': no.
If you have truly repented of your personal sin and if you believe that the Son of God suffered for your own personal sin on the cross and took the wrath of God on His own body there for you, then you absolutely will not want to live for yourself, but for God. 'We love Him because He first loved us'. This is where works come in: works are, as it were, fruit. A true born again believer WILL have fruit in their lives that they are God's (God gives the born again believer many different kinds of assurances). Matthew 7:16 'ye shall know them by their fruit'.

True repentance is serious: if you are truly repentant there will be a change, and the sin you once loved you will no longer love but it will be putrid to you. This change, again, is made by God, not by us, we can no more give ourselves a new/regenerated heart that loves God and hates sin anymore than we can gain entry to heaven by works, again read Ephesians 2: 1-6. The quickening that is spoken of here is a supernatural work which only God can do.

Will He do that for you? Remember God is Truth and cannot lie: He gives the promise: 'For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved'. That whosoever means you @searchingsearching IF you call on Him. Ezekiel 36:26 'A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you'.