saw a woman in a burkha the other day

[onlygirlinthehouse]

can someone please explain to me how it can be ok, in 2008, for a woman to be walking down the street in an ordinary northern town in a full burkha. I personally find the wearing of burkha quite shocking but to see it in my home town was even more so.

I have no problem with the wearing of headscarves, it doesnt interfere with normal everyday social interactions, but we are now seeing more and more full face veils and as I have said, even burkhas, surely this is cutting yourself off from normal society.

Is this progress? Is this freedom of speech and expression? Someone please justify this for me.

I think this has is a really interesting and pretty balanced thread - I've certainly learned a lot from it.

Another q for Riven (dorry if you;re feeling bombarded!): is it a problem that the burkha (or other form of head -to-toe covering) IS associated with female oppression, either rightly or wrongly? To tak the opposite example, I would say I have the right to wear a Playboy t-shirt (and the right to freedom of expression is v important to me), but I wuld feel uncomfortable with the associations so I wouldn't - is there a similar conflict? Or is it a religious requirement and so not subject to those feelings of guilt by association (which women in general are so good at)?

riven - I don't agree with you that the 'barrier' when trying to converse with someone whose face is covered is all in the head of the uncovered woman trying to do the talking.

I've found it very difficult, having clients wearing full veils; two of them also wore glasses and I found it practically difficult to have a conversation with them. I don't think this is a symptom of my racism or lack of cultural sensitivity but more to do with the fact that I couldn't see their faces, and particularly when english was not their first language, this made it hard for me. Quite a lot of understanding conversation is done by watching the lips form words.

I would find it unsettling if someone wrapped a scarf around their mouth or wore sunglasses when talking to me. I think it can be a real practical difficulty.

And i just don't understand why my female clients can't take off their veils when alone in a room with me, another woman. Is it because I am not a muslim woman??

Yes, I'm sure it is what you're used to, and also there must be other cues that you get used to. For instance there must be some kind of habitual way of starting a conversation with someone in deafblind manual - I'd guess you make an overture with some kind of touch, get an encouraging/discouraging response and know where to go from there - whether the conversation is welcome or not. The same will go for blind people, who I'm sure are very sensitive to the sounds of people's voices. But if you're not used to that, it's a barrier, and it's not just 'in the head' of the person who isn't used to the conversing with limited/no facial expressions. You can't just change an attitude by logical thought that it 'ought' to be OK, and suddenly find the social interaction easy.

Calling it a barrier is just a description of the effect of a full veil, not an argument that people shouldn't wear that if they want to - let them wear it if they want to, just accept (as presumably they happily do) that it's going to make it harder for some people to interact with them. It's not the end of the world, but there's no point pretending it's not there as an effect.

Personally I think arguing that a full face covering doesn't constitute a barrier is disingenuous. Of course it does - that's exactly what it was designed to do.

But equally I know that I would not move to Yap and go topless, like all the women there do. It's my personal and cultural preference to cover my norks.

I don't understand your surprise. Women have been wearing burkhas since time immemorial, certianly where I live anyway.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest and why should it? It's their choice. As long as I don't have to wear one, and I don't, there is nothing to worry about.

PS - FIL is Indian and says that full Muslim dress is traditionally a Middle Eastern thing but that more and more Asian Muslim women are choosing to wear it to define their faith.

Whether that's right or not is another matter, but I think it shows that it is THEIR choice rather than that of the men.

Sorry me again: just a question for any Muslims? How does one do sport/physical activity in Muslim dress?

I am a runner and can't imagine how it would be possible to do this even in a headscarf never mind anything more.

Are Muslims allowed to remove all their garb to do sport, or do they just not do any?

Apologies if this is an ignorant question.

There are words in our language that are no longer acceptable because they are tools of oppression and other words deamed offensive because they have been used to demean, the burka is the same. You cannot disconnect the association with oppression and think it should be outlawed in this country, we can all say freedom of expression is a human right but I do not believe that to be true. It is not okay to encourage segregation, it is not freedom that women wearing a burka ask for, it is to be different and to belong to something outside of British society and that is not what Britian is about. It is all very well coming up with arguments against this like the racist that pulls off the veil but noone would say this is right either. I think the upward trend of wearing a burka is affects of the invasion of Iraq, terrorist attacks by fanatics and so on. As far as I can see the wearing of the burka simply follows what the terrorists want, encouraging Muslims in the West to see themselves as different. I think it's a terrible shame.

i think everyone should be bland

good sensible hold 'em up bra. no frill

grey t-shirt - no slogan - no tit flesh

brown hair - noo highlights, no hair dye

brown trousers

most importantly boring clarkes doodles shoes

boring wear is the monika or the middle classes

anyone affecting that sensibility from playboy to bhurka should recieve a thorough whispering about

custy that is almost me! are yuo my stalker!

Tend to do jeans rather than brown trews thos, and I do highlight my hair

Mrs Bland

Since when has having a wheelchair not been part of society or a choice. Actually I feel the burka is the wearer's symbol of intolerance, by choosing to go against social norms. And I also feel that it is damaging to wear a burka for the rights of women and choices that we have in Britain that are slowly erroded by segregation which is encouraged by these women.
Riven I accept that you are in a wheelchair but to throw it into every argument is rather questionable, it has no relevance.
Reigion is not a disability but I am amazed how it disables the individual.

But there are rules about what you can and can't wear in britain. It would create problems between me and the rest of society if i walked around naked, just as covering myself into invisibility would create its own problems. One is perfectly legal and one illegal but I would argue that both options could be a barrier towards normal social cohesion and interaction. Then again, perhaps it isn't the Burkha itself which prevents women wearing it from interacting with non-muslims, perhaps its the way those women wearing it are required to behave around non-muslims which creates a problem - for example not being allowed to invite non-muslims into one's home.

branflakes, where do you live? Because the burkha certainly hasn't been commonplace in Britain 'since time immemorial'. Until very recently, the bulk of Muslims in this country were Asian and didn't wear middle-Eastern dress.

Branflake; FYI: Iranian women's football team

Here is a Muslim riddle. When one criticizes the practice of Muslim women wearing the burka or hijab, Muslims quickly respond that their religious symbol or choice is being attacked, but when girls like Aqsa die for refusing to accept the same religious symbol, Muslims quickly respond by saying their religion has nothing do with the death. She was a Canadian killed by her father for not wearing the burka/hijab.

Riven you must lead a life of conflict, social norms that I was referring to are acceptable ways of dressing that British Western women find oppressive and degrading, insulting to women. I am pretty sure there is little comparison with the 'social norms' you do not follow.