saw a woman in a burkha the other day

[onlygirlinthehouse]

can someone please explain to me how it can be ok, in 2008, for a woman to be walking down the street in an ordinary northern town in a full burkha. I personally find the wearing of burkha quite shocking but to see it in my home town was even more so.

I have no problem with the wearing of headscarves, it doesnt interfere with normal everyday social interactions, but we are now seeing more and more full face veils and as I have said, even burkhas, surely this is cutting yourself off from normal society.

Is this progress? Is this freedom of speech and expression? Someone please justify this for me.

thanks riven.

I saw a mother in burkha with a little girl in the park the other day (in Holland), and the little girl was no more than 4, and was wearing a black hijab. This seemed to be a new level of orthodoxy, as I've seen plenty of girls of 7-8 wearing white hijabs, or wearing it for fun to copy their mother or older sisters, but this little girl was tiny, alone with her mother and mother's friends (all in abayas but not burkhas).

So the message there is that a 4 year old girl is a sexual object and men will get turned on by looking at her? Apart from the fact that she can't feel the wind and sun on her hair etc. That decision was clearly made for her, and it made me angry. It was nothing to do with choice or personal decisions...

or perhaps she wanted to dress like mummy? or perhaps she was starting to learn about covering up when she went out in the same way that someone who didn't cover might dress their little girl in jeans and a t shirt in the mornign knowign full well that the jeands and t-shirt will be off my the end of the day as it is hot at the moment.

I wear a headscarf and loose clothes, I don't choose to cover my face and that is my choice - I have a lot of friends who do - and believe me - it is thier choice to do so.

Some people (men and women) get pressurised to do things by other people - maybe for the wrong reasons, maybe for the right reasons (I swear less when I am with friends who don't swear as they are a good influence on me for example) Sadly there are people in relationships who are made to cover when it is not their choice - equally I know someone who has just got a boob job because her husband wanted it. Personally I don't think it is a good relationship in these circumstances but I try not to judge the person - instead I try to understand them and be there as a friend - they need help not critisism.

My son when he is older will not routinely be dressed in shorts or allowed to go out in public without his body and shoulders covered - If I have daughters they will have headscarves as children and will wear them sometimes when we go out. I think it is cruel to let children run around almost naked until they hit puberty, then start makin up the rules about dress but.....

If they decide at 4 years old to strip to their birthday suit in the middle of the supermarket I will not shout at them - I will quietly redress them and explain that we wear clothes in public.....

If they don't want to wear a scarf when they are older.. that is ok too.... but they will be introduced to it as a normal part of clothing and what mummy wears so they can decide for themselves when they are older

Since I think it is right to cover my hair it would be unreasonable to expect me to bring up my children to believe differently.

but, ummadam, why should children (i.e. pre puberty) wear the headscarf? I thought the headscarf is about covering up a woman's sexual charms, a gesture of modesty. If you have to cover a little girl, isn't it sexualising a little girl?

and by the way I am also totally against tarty clothes for little girls, short tarty skirts, high heels etc.. Anything which sexualises kids. I think kids should just be kids..

Gemzooks - that is what I was (possibly badly) trying to explain... why do we make children wear clothes at all in the summer? it is warm enough not to so it is not about protection - But i expect you would find it odd to see a 4year old girl (or boy) walking around with their mum wearing t shirt and shorts for example but them completely naked. Why? again it is cultural norm in this culture to "cover your nakedness" when in public even from a young age - prior to puberty, the younger you are the more acceptable it is to be naked - a 4 year old naked on the beach for example might be ok - what about an 11 year old girl.... would that raise eyebrows?

So in english culture (I'm english by the way - all the way back to at least the 1700s as far as our family tree goes!) we teach our children to cover up some parts of their body in preperation for them reaching puberty and sexuality - is this sexualising them? I don't think so - and I so I don't think that letting a little girl wear a headscarf to dress up like mummy - or encouraging her to wear one for special occasions - perhaps when going to the mosque etc is a bad thing at all - and it is certianly not about her sexuality - it is about the process of growing up, which happens very gradually not overnight.

perhaps the misunderstanding is about "have to cover a little girl" there is no "have to" as far as Islam goes - in the same way that our hypothetical english, non muslim 11 year old girl does not "have to" wear any clothes at all - she will not explode, get arrested or sectioned if she does not will she - but we still don't encourage it.

In Islam from puberty both girls and boys should be covered from the "navel to the knee" even with the same gender. In addition, girls should cover all but their face and hands (and some people say feet but that is a bit more debatable) if there are men around that are not in their immediate family. Boys and girls should both wear loose clothes (ie not skin tight) and contrary to popular belief.. ** there is no punishment to be given for not wearing hijab (ie not dressing modestly)it is between the person and Allah alone - it is good for people to encourage it - but noone has the right to enforce it as in Islam we believe that only God is in a position to judge people.

I don't cover my hair in front of my friends nine year old boy, he is a child - but I will probably start to when he hits 10 as he is approaching puberty and will all the time by the time he is 14 and this is part of treating him as an adult as he gets older.

ps. the logic of girls covering more than boys is that "in general" (ie not everyone is the same) Women are better than guys at looking past the superficial and seeing the person beneath. In Islam all women are considered to be beautiful - no matter their shape or size but men do not have the automatic right to enjoy their beauty - it is not about men being unable to control their urges and jump on the nearest woman! It is about seeing the person - not the skin.

Well that is a long message - sorry - lots of you may not agree - that's ok - you don't have to. I might not agree with your life choices either but as long as you don't hurt anyone I will stick up for your right to make that choice until my last breath.

For those of you who are genuinely interested in a muslim woman's point of view - here it is.

Very interesting explanations, ummadam, thanks for taking the time.

May I just ask, is the notion that 'women are better than guys at looking past the superficial'
a generally accepted Islamic norm? Is there a reference in the Qur'an to this?

Yes, thanks Ummadam for your intelligent response..What you seem to be saying is that the modest dress proscribed by Islam is about conserving human dignity and values by not cheapening sexual attractiveness. I can totally go along with that. I can understand too, that a little girl might dress up to copy her mother, or wear the headscarf for a special occasion. What disturbed me on this occasion, was the seeming inappropriateness of putting a headscarf on such a very young girl (she may not even have been 4), and she was just in a sandpit playing so it definitely wasn't a special occasion, as it seemed to deny her simple pleasures of childhood like feeling the breeze and sun in your hair. Also, it seemed to be saying that she was a sexual object, because as you say normally the hijaab would ony be worn from puberty. I would have felt the same had I seen a kid wearing anything which seemed to limit them and which had obviously been imposed. On the nakedness issue, I wouldn't actively go to naturist places, except a beach or whatever, but basically think our naked bodies are not something to be hidden on moral grounds, more on aesthetic grounds!

I think it's also an issue of religion versus culture, because many Muslims don't wear the hijaab and don't cover up younger girls, it's more dependent on the brand of Islam or the region people are from. That would make it harder to justify more orthodox brands in terms of religious truth.

I respect people's reasons for believing what they choose to and wearing what they choose, but because my beliefs centre only in human rights based approaches, not in a religious belief system, so I could not accept any system which recommends different dress for men and women, and I find it a pity when children are limited by their parents' beliefs (not just Islam, any religion)... so guess we can agree to disagree!

That's a good question DaddyJ - I'm not really sure - I remember it being the focal point of a sermon I heard one time admonishing men from spending all their time worrying what the women wore and neglecting their own modesty and noone corrected him (there are always a few people at least who know it off by heart in the mosque)

I wish I knew the Quran off by heart but I'm not a scholar so I only have my own understanding - this is certainly the prevailing view of the muslims I mix with, male and female. It's not that us girls don't like looking and it's not that men are uncontrollable brutes or anything silly like that - just that we are programmed differently - like in general, romantic or erotic fiction is read by women whereas men tend to prefer the pictures.

Islam has one rule for everyone - some of the guys I know would see me as a person no matter what I wore - but a blanket rule is easier to follow than one with lots of variations.

There is also the concept of "averting the gaze" for men and women - If you look at someone and find them attractive then that is normal - but you then look away - don't stare or wonder what they look like naked!

There are numerous references to the equality of men and women in the sight of God and the sections that speak about how muslims should behave tend to start by addressing men and women together so noone can forget that the rules appky to both. People often forget that the rules go both ways (muslim guys often forget too! hence they need reminding! )

I can guarantee that if you look hard enough you will find muslim men that say it is because women are unclean, or all temptresses at heart or some such rubbish - usually from indian subcontinent as a lot of those ideas are from a confused mix of Islam, Indian culture and the hindu caste system - and because sometimes there are just stupid people in the world - but I have read the Quran cover to cover a hundred times and I wouldn't remain a muslim if God said stuff like that!

I'm rambling again so I'll end with this - Muhammad's first wife and his only wife for 20 odd years until her death was a business women, educated, intelligent and in fact was his boss when they met! Now the Quran tells us that he was an example of how good we can be if we try hard - so where did all the male dominated stuff creep in? in the many years after the Quran was completed and after Muhammad had died. People can screw anything up if they try hard enough!

Men and Women are of equal worth in the sight of God - but they are made differently with different but equally important and complimentary responsibilities and skills.

huge round of applause to anyone who has managed to get to the nd of that!

Gemzooks - I agree with a lot of what you say. My little brother when he was about 4/5 hated the fact that he was made to wear a shirt and tie to school when I could choose whether to wear that or a simple blouse as he found it hot and restrictive when playing. We do oppress our men in england by making them wear ties and long sleeves to work and stopping them from wearing miniskirts and feeling the air "circulating" properly

(Tongue firmly in cheek - but food for thought perhaps)

You are right about religion vs culture - it is a daily battle with my inlaws who are very stuck in their culture and that interpretation of Islam.

Happy to agree to disagree

That's really interesting, Ummadam; things make a lot more sense when you hear them from an informed perspective.

I come at the modesty thing from another perspective, as I am Swedish and we cover up our children a lot less and a lot later than do the British. Came as a bit of a shock at first and I did go through the whole oh-my-goodness-they-must-be-really-prurient-and-disgusting-people-to-think-of-young-children-this-wa y. School uniform also seemed a weird concept. Particularly the ties.

But I have learnt to look beyond the initial shock horror reaction and realise that people aren't necessarily weird and disgusting just because they do things differently from what I'm used to.

My Mum still firmly believes that British school children are oppressed, forced to wear those horrible clothes. But dd looks fairly unoppressed to me.

These days, as a university teachers, I see a fair few women in burkhas; have to say it worries me less than the ones with pierced tongues. But frankly, neither of these are any of my concern; I am not employed as the fashion critic, but as a language tutor. The only thing that should really shock me is people coming out in public without a decent covering of subjunctives!

fuzzywuzzy have you looked on the swimshop website for a costume, they do have a "modest" range, although these are still fairly figure-hugging they do cover up pretty well.

I was watching a programme on BBC2 yesterday about women in Dubai and how exclusive fashion houses are now coming up with more modest clothes (longer skirts, higher necklines etc) to cater for these supposedly oppressed women in hijaabs. Interestingly enough, and I'm not sure what to make of this, the branch of Agent Provocateur in Dubai is actually the most profitable in the world.

saadia, I saw that programme. It was all a bit odd, I thought. Astonishing amounts of money spent on accessories to draw attention to yourself, and yet you have to cover yourself in a big black abaya. Sort of came across as the very opposite of notions of modesty, really.

yes there was a bit of a contradiction - I think it's partly a case of people having more money than sense, but also that you are allowed to dress up and be glamorous but only among women or for your husband and not for the general public.

ummadam, thank you so much for taking the time to explain it all

so in summary... women cover up because men are weak willed and prefer pictures! i like it! it also reminds us that most men have little imagination!

sorry, on a serous note... i have often wondered the reasons behind why some women chose to wear what they wear. Why would some women wear the complete veil etc whereas others just cover their hair?

Also, perhaps you could try and explain the following situation that happened last week to me.
I was in a hospital waiting room with various pregnant ladies. One of which was completely covered apart from her eyes.
There was a tv in the corner of the room.
One by one everyone left apart from me and the veiled lady (apologies if this isn't the correct way to describe her), a wildlife program came onto the tv and i know its silly but they really upset me when the cubs die etc (yes yes i know its my hormones!) so i asked the other lady if she minded if i changed the channel. She didn't reply, just stared at me. i asked again in case she hadn't heard and again she just stared.
I know she understood English because i overheard her talking to one of the nurses.
so i guess my question is, what should i have done? was it rude of me to talk to her? but then again, i feel it would have been rude of me to have just changed the channels without asking her

Hi Miamla - people wear what they wear for lots of reasons - some it is cultural (ie in their family it is the norm to wear whatever and they don't question it), some for their own reasons like my jewish friend who covers her hair according to jewish scriptures even though her husband would rather she didn't, some because they like the clothes

I actually prefer to wear long abayas (the cloak thing) with a loose scarf and I prefer dark colours because I'm just not a light colour person I prefer this partly because I think it fulfills the islamic recomendation to cover the shape of your body better.

In practice I wear jeans and a long top with a bright scarf and a smile because I'm scared of being attacked (again) and because I find that in the UK it is the only way to 1) not get stared at 2) not have people make too many assumptions about you (most don't think I speak english when I wear my long clothes) and I guess I'm a little weak in that respect - not brave enough to wear what i am really comfortable in because of the opinions and actions of other people (sadly the same opiniosn held by some of the people who have posted on this board).

my friends who cover their faces all do it because it fills their idea of modesty. I don't know anyone who is forced to - usually the opposite in my experience - it is the women who want to wear it, but the men don't want them to as it draws attention to them and they are worried about violence - having spent the first 23 years of my life not wearing it and the last 5 doing so I have experienced first hand the difference between how people treat you

I talk lots don't I!

The lady in the hospital, who knows? my money is on her just being weird but i always try to give peopel the benefit of the doubt so..

maybe, she didn't realise you were talking to her, she misheard you and thought you were insulting her, she understands some English but not enough, she understands the words - but not want you meant, she was too wrapped up in her own worries (maybe her pregnancy is not going well) to take it in properly or...

as I did once - she forgot that people who aren't used to talking to people in niquaab need you to overemphasise when you smile or nod as they are not used to seeing the subtle expressions that we get used to recognising

(niquaab is the face veil - in common british muslim parlance a hijabi is a girl who wears the scarf and a niquaabi is someone who wears the face veil.... and a ninjabi is a hijabi who does martial arts - but that's a whole different conversation ;) )

and no it wasn't rudee of you to talk to her at all - girls in niquaab would usually not want to be addressed by men more than simple courtesy but even if you were a guy a question like that would not offend. Another woman is no issue

I would have answered you and so would have all the people I know who wear niquaab - in fact you may have regretted it with one or too as people are so rarely friendly to them when they are out that they might difficulty stopping them chatting nonstop!

ummadam, I sympathize with the wearing a smile to ward off attack. I had a very nasty experience wearing a headcovering and a loose dress, and was openly abused on the street. People can be really unpleasant.

ummadam, thank you so much. you've answered questions that i've had for years but just didn't know how to (politely!) find out answers to

i guess we'll never know about the lady in the hospital but you've certainly given me the green light to talk to others in a similar situation so thank you, I'm not sure i would have done without you telling me that its ok.

i know it happens but its awful to hear that people are abused for what they chose to wear.

funny tale for you to highlight the other extreme of the scale...
I was waiting at a bus stop a few weeks ago (the first morning we had a real summer's day in London) with a couple of older ladies. A young girl walked past us wearing what can only be described as the skimpiest vest top and shortest shorts i've ever seen. they really didn't leave much to the imagination and it was very obvious she had no underwear at all on!
I was thinking to myself, good grief, far more suitable for a beach than a busy town at 9am in the morning but she should at least have put some underwear on. Meanwhile, i heard the two older ladies discussing her lack of underwear and sighing to themselves about how it makes them feel so old. I turned round (i'm in my early thirties) and commented on how they'd just voiced what i was thinking so i must be old too!
we all got on the bus with knowing smiles on our faces!

I am glad this thread is still going - I wanted to reply to you, ummadam,
but have been away on business.

There is a lot of evidence that men are indeed more visually-driven than women.
I am just not sure why the onus should be on women to address this 'problem'.

Could there not be another approach?
How about teaching men (and women) from an early age that we need to treat each other with respect
and that we are perfectly capable of controlling our in-built tendency to regard any member of the opposite gender in sexual terms.

Of course, the approach I am putting forward is more ambitious, more optimistic about human nature
than simply accepting the 'fact' that 'men cannot control themselves, that's the way it is'.

hi DaddyJ - quick reply as we are off out but..

"Could there not be another approach?
How about teaching men (and women) from an early age that we need to treat each other with respect
and that we are perfectly capable of controlling our in-built tendency to regard any member of the opposite gender in sexual terms."

this is a big part of Islam - both men and women are supposed to adhere to it - but dressing modestly is part of the "belt and braces" approach

sorry to hijack but SPOKETTE could you email me please on tobys_mummy at hotmail dot com i have a question to ask you.

'I don't know why you let men dictate what women should wear - its so restrictive' said the blonde with the micro skirt and very high heels tottering away from the burka-clad woman.

Pot and kettle.