saw a woman in a burkha the other day

[onlygirlinthehouse]

can someone please explain to me how it can be ok, in 2008, for a woman to be walking down the street in an ordinary northern town in a full burkha. I personally find the wearing of burkha quite shocking but to see it in my home town was even more so.

I have no problem with the wearing of headscarves, it doesnt interfere with normal everyday social interactions, but we are now seeing more and more full face veils and as I have said, even burkhas, surely this is cutting yourself off from normal society.

Is this progress? Is this freedom of speech and expression? Someone please justify this for me.

Oooh I like this thread.

It's been a while since there was such an intelligent and reasoned debate on here. (that I've seen at least...)

I'll consider carefully before giving my 2p, wouldn't want to ruin the flow

I am not sure how much wearing a burkha is freedom of religious expression tbh. As a woman of course I would want any other woman to be free and able to dress as she pleased.

My discomfort with the burkha is not borne out of any latent racist thoughts. My discomfort with the burkha is because (rightly or wrongly, jump on me if you will) that women are being (a) bullied or (b) coerced or (c) indoctrinated into wearing these things. And I feel uncomfortable about that. Because it is a fact that women are by and large repressed in the societies where burkhas are worn. So in my mind the burkha is associated with repressing women.

Am I right in thinking that most women wearing burkhas in the West are choosing to do so as a definite expression of faith ratehr than being coerced into doing so?

I wouldn't be shocked at seeing somene in a burkha (not uncommon where I live along with other forms of 'modesty' dress, covering hair, long skirts etc.) but I suppose that if a friend wore one in public I might have a an argument with her as to her reasoning.

I feel a bit sad at the girls in my area in long skirts and tights in the hot weather, when tneir brothers are running round in t-shirts.

if the issue is men admiring women which is frowned on in certain religions - why don't men have to wear a man-veil which makes it difficult for them to see the detial of womens features?

In the recent case of the young woman who was sacked for wearing a full face covering while working with children who had EAL, she had been told by her Imam that wearing full covering was essential, it was a fatwa.

Hard to disagree with that, so I'm not sure she had complete freedom. Though others do, I'm sure

re the dress of men, there are restrictions on what muslim men can wear. they are not allowed to wear short sleaved shirts , for example.

But we tend not to hear as much about this. In part because it is harder to whip up a Daily Mail frenzy about it, and also because some societies but a higher emphasis of female correct dress than male.

"Have you ever tried to engage someone in conversation whilst they were wearing a full veil,"

No - but I have had numerous conversations with people who are completely blind and they seemed to cope ok with conversing with me.......

I don't get this

I don't see why its anyone else's business

I seriously object to quite a lot of things. Mullets, for example. Crocs on anyone over 12. I don't actually believe I have a right to ban mullets or crocs. Not quite, anyway.

I've had plenty of conversations with women in burkhas (have worked in various advice centres), its not a problem at all, any more than talking to someone who avoids eye contact, or has to get up to open and shut the blinds after every sentence.

There was a furore recently about a 'modesty' session for men at our local pool

the one for women got much less criticism (though shutting off half the pool to families at prime weekend time was Not Popular)

this anti-muslim stuff also seems very recent

I am pretty sure that it wasn't seen as a problem even just 10 years ago, though could be wrong.

at end of cold war...

Martian, in practice however I rarely see the whole family adhering to muslim but often the women.

I read something recently written by a Muslim woman, persuading other Muslim women not to wear a veil. It was very interesting. Wish I could remember where I read it[vague]

Sexual double standards seem to crop up in just about all cultures.

A sexually active boy is a 'stud' but a girl is a 'slag'. Muslim boys are sometimes allwed to 'play the field' but their sister are the depositories of the family'honour'

It crops up in all cultures, I think

"Am I right in thinking that most women wearing burkhas in the West are choosing to do so as a definite expression of faith ratehr than being coerced into doing so?"

It is possible to believe that but my construction is that the oppression has been internalised.

Put simply, how can it be anything other than oppressive for one gender to have to cover up while the other strides free?

Barnstaple - Persepolis is by Marjane Satrapi. It is a book - in comic strip format and has just come out as an animated film. It is all about growing up in Iran before and after the revolution and explains alot.

I look at Iranians in a completely new (educated) light now. A bit like Ireland, they were forever being invaded. An excellent introduction into the background to modern Iran and one girl's story. The writing is eloquent even though the format is unusual for such a book. It has funny moments and other bits are shocking.

By all means debate the burkha if you like, but unless you are well conversed in Islamic fiqh, the argument, 'I have a muslim friend who says the burkha is not requisite in islam', doesn't have any kudos whatsoever. Depending on which school of thought one follows there are many different approaches to what is considered appropriate islamic wear amongst muslims.
More importantly I know that women who wear the face veil believe firmly that it is presribed for them islamically, not because they want to go and piss off the natives of the northern town in which they also happen to reside.

I do agree it should absolutely be the wearers choice what she wears not her husbands/parents or whoever but hers and hers alone.

I dont wear the face veil, but it takes a whole lot of courage to wear the headscarf given the reaction of many people.

In the end it's my choice, I'm not causing anyone any harm, and more importantly when I have my hijaab and abaya on in the morning, I dont have to bother getting dressed out of my pyjamas for the school run....bonus!!

quattrocento- i think it extends further than just the covering up aspect of clothing. I live in Bradford, and i observe many families here where the boys are allowed "western" dress including designer lables, and the girls stuff is often home made cotton suits of cheap fabric, and the poor girls are given cheap crappy sandals to wear all winter whereas the boys can have full shoes. There appears to me to be a divide as to how much money is spent on each gender- so a different form of oppression.
I would not dream of telling another parent how to spend their money on their children- and i know i may be way out of line here- i have no wish to offend anyone by sharing this observation.

IMO, fuzzywuzzy, what we all wear does affect others and therefore matter to others.

I believe it is harmful to the general functioning of society to see girls (and women) in playboy tshirts.

Likewise I think that women who prefer to cover up their faces completely for reasons of modesty or whatever do wider society no favours as they perpetuate the ideas outlined below - that women must hide from men's gaze but that men are free to gaze, that women must show modesty but men don't need to and that women are somehow responsible for the reactions of men.

I think walking around in a bhurka screams segregation and I absolutely doubt it is their choice. How can it be freeing to cover up your face so noone can see who you are? I think it makes them look like black ghosts.

I saw an interesting video as part of my coursework in which young women if a french high school were very vocally defending their right to wear the bhurka. In some cases they were not being made to by anyone; quite the opposite. One young woman's father was pleading with her not to, because he felt she was putting her education at risk and that her education was more important.

I found it quite an eye opener.

Muslim men are expected to dress acertain way too. Both men and women are expected to lower their gaze not oggle one another. But that's perscribed for muslims.

I dont think it's segregating actually, wearing whatever I want, my skin colour is also offensive to many people too.

Everyone is never going to be happy.

This was never an issue a couple of decades ago, and I know for a fact there were lots of women in face veils when I was a child, there appear to be more women in headscarves now but I dont see an incredible increase in women in face veils.
The style has most deifinitely changed, I do see women in billowing chador style veils more, I think those are more popular amongst the Somali women, and prolly attract a bit more attention too as they are volumnou(sp?).

The people who find it socially segregating, how many muslim women in general have you tried conversing with, how many women completely unknown to you have you tried to engage in conversation ??? Terribly curious about this last bit.

FioFio, to be fair, it's only some people who are horrible to me when they see me and I would expect them to be horrible regardless of my dress, they dont see the person, they see an immigrant!! Altho my grandparents lived and worked here and my dad grew up in london.....

I have met more people who have been absolutely wonderful, and I've worked with a girl who started off as one of the above examples, but became the latter once she got past the hijab and got to know the person.