saw a woman in a burkha the other day

[onlygirlinthehouse]

can someone please explain to me how it can be ok, in 2008, for a woman to be walking down the street in an ordinary northern town in a full burkha. I personally find the wearing of burkha quite shocking but to see it in my home town was even more so.

I have no problem with the wearing of headscarves, it doesnt interfere with normal everyday social interactions, but we are now seeing more and more full face veils and as I have said, even burkhas, surely this is cutting yourself off from normal society.

Is this progress? Is this freedom of speech and expression? Someone please justify this for me.

Rather like informed consent, I suppose. With all the information at hand and under no duress

Riven, I thought we were discussing bhurka specifically. It is very different from wearing a veil I think. And yes, I know many muslim women who wear a veil both friends of mine and colleagues. You see women wearing veils everywhere in society and that is because it doesn't stop them from being part of normal society.

Peachy it's hardly a question of burka versus "size four tits out," is it? Western culture is all about choices and freedom. Strict muslim culture (or any strict religious culture come to that) is not. But I find the consignment of women (young and old) to life imprisoned behind a burka odious. Not to feel the wind or the sunlight on your skin. Not to expose your face for fear of inflaming men's passions. One step away from putting them in dungeon's in my mind.

Of course in any female gathering women take off the veil, but society is made up of men and women, how can womens opinions be taken seriously when they can only interact without being covered with other women? I have male and female friends (and Muslim friends too, but none who are veiled - sorry )and the men speak to me as an equal and are not just looking at me as a sexual object

I didn't get married in a veil, and my father didn't give me away either. and I didn't change my name.

Imagine if the world (God forbid) adopted Islamic doctrine that dictated that women should cover their faces. Women would be erased from art, culture etc in one foul swoop. We would not have the Mona Lisa for example.

I have no problem with head coverings but I am totally against women erasing their identity from society. Absolutely crazy, misogynist and oppressive, imho.

oh i have real friends who are male. i simply don't assume that they are thinking about having sex with me all the time! and my dh has male friends who are gay. the same is true for him, he dopesn't assume that they fancy him.

Which either means that we are very well grounded, or that we both look too awful for other people to fancy

Whatever anyone thinks about the wearing of burkhas, etc I think the more important wider issue is dealing with the conflict that sometimes arises between upholding traditions and at the same time integrating with the adopted country. And it doesn't just apply to people who have moved here from Muslim countries.... I found it a real culture shock moving to the UK as a relatively naive 20-something from the country next door!

I know of an elderly woman near me who has lived in the UK for decades but had real problems when she had to go to hospital recently because she speaks virtually no English - a family member had to stay with her all the time. I just couldn't imagine living in France, say, for that length of time and not learning the language enough to get by. It just doesn't seem right to me.... and there was a thread recently about children not being allowed to go to birthday parties, etc if the birthday child was not one of their community...

Don't know what the answer is but I think it is an important issue.

I don't think it's chiefly fear of difference - although there probably is some element of that and it's entirely natural in a society where veiling was almost unknown until very recently - it's about the oppression of women.

The demand that women should literally hide themselves from view is clearly about objectification. Just as much as a Playboy bunny outfit at the other extreme.

If some women want to go along with either of these out of free choice, then it's not my place to stop them. But it does sadden me.

Covering the face does make communication more difficult. There are areas of the human brain that have evolved specifically to decode facial expression. And veiling puts the non-veiled person at a disadvantage as they have less ability to judge the reaction of the veiled person.

The issue has simply never arisen [fnar, fnar, no pun intended]

I know the stats, but I've never had anyone proposition me. I'm open about being very happily married, and no=one has ever made me embarrassed, in 20 years. and all of this regardless of what I've worn. I'm more than the sum of my clothes, I think

I just treat people as people.

Women think about sex too. I am sure on some days I think of sex every 7 secondsThis sounds. I would be devestated if men started to cover up in bhurkas

Mind you, some of the beer guts I've seen today would have looked a lot better under a shirt!

(Ha Fio.. your bra staps are "hidden" because you don't wear one!)

Quattro, you asked what free will means in this context.

In my view, the acid test is this: what would happen if she decided to go out without a burkha for a while?

If the answer is 'nothing, her family and the wider community would treat her as usual' then you got free will.
If the answer is 'she will be ostracised, threatened, treated with contempt and possibly beaten to a pulp', well, no free will here.

It's nice to hear from Muslim MNers that they are not being coerced at all
but from what I know that is not necessarily the case with all Muslim women.

I associate the bhurka with countries like Afghanistan where girls aren't even aloud an education or basic health services. How is this then supposed to be a symbol of liberation and freedom in our society?

I also wondered how free the thought process actually was after years of indoctrination.

Good point, DaddyJ.