Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Original poster

Rules which must be followed by orthodox Jews.

113 replies

SchlemielSchlimazel · 27/10/2024 18:50

I am slightly mystified by various aspects of orthodox Judaism, particularly rules that people are obliged to follow at different times.

Please can anyone who has relevant knowledge explain to me the purpose of having myriad arcane rules and then finding workarounds to circumvent them?

For example being forbidden to carry items in public on the Sabbath and then stringing a wire around the area in order to make it no longer public.

No tearing toilet paper, but you can do it in advance.

Not being allowed to turn lights on and off, so having a special cover which essentially allows you to turn the lights on and off (I think this is called a kosher lamp or kosher switch).

Do Jewish people unquestioningly accept these rules as being deeply respectful and meaningful, or do they privately think they are a bit crazy?

OP posts:
Original poster
SchlemielSchlimazel · 27/10/2024 20:19

Mosaic123 · 27/10/2024 20:03

OP you do know what Schlemeil means don't you?

It means fool in Yiddish.

Yes, I know.

OP posts:
Original poster
SchlemielSchlimazel · 27/10/2024 20:20

BrightYellowDaffodil · 27/10/2024 19:58

Oh, and there's another one. Not being allowed to write "God" in full.

It’s not uncommon, in Islam beings are not depicted which is why mosques are decorated with beautiful script. Can you genuinely not understand that other people have things which they find important and act in ways which respect and reflect that importance to them? They’re not doing you any harm so why the rather sneery tone?

Yes, and in the post directly above yours I thanked people for offering insight and explanations.

OP posts:
Original poster
SchlemielSchlimazel · 27/10/2024 20:30

daniin · 27/10/2024 20:10

Not that anyone asked, but I will explain what Shabbos (Friday night to Sunday night, 25 hours), looks like for me Smile

My phone is put down, on loud as I personally want someone to be able to contact me in an emergency. Candles are lit 18 minutes or so before sundown. I say a specific prayer, and then a pray of thanks and gratitude, and say some good thoughts and wishes about people I know and love, or someone in my thoughts.

I then spend some time with DC, put them to bed not long after and then enjoy my evening - Usually a hot bubble bath and a good book. Absolutely no house work allowed unless it's essential Wink

Saturday, all day, I spend my focus and time on my DC. I use my phone to attend Shol sometimes, unless DC1 (disabled) is with a carer. Otherwise, I might go in person with DC2.

I go swimming in the afternoon with my children, play with them, nap if I can and H is watching them. Then that's it - Evening rolls around and Shabbos is over.

I follow the practice of not making any purchases on Shabbos, usually. But have broken this occasionally for DC, for example to enable one of them buy a drink they see at a cafe after swimming

Some of these things aren't strictly allowed if I was Orthodox. But I take a practical and realistic approach to my own practice that enables me to care for my children in a way that makes sense and works. Likewise, some Jews don't acknowledge Shabbos at all. But they might have a stricter Kosher home than me - My only Kosher following is no pork. And I don't mix dairy and meat for 6 hours. My children do - again, disability means these things can't be explained to them and I'd rather they are happy with as little upset as possible in their lives

My husband is not Jewish. My Jewishness comes from my Grandmother's mum. I am a Jew through my mother's line but she is a Christian - although technically a Jew too. I started practicing my Jewish faith in my mid 20s

Shamefully, I am a more present parent on Shabbos. Clearly I must be using my phone too much! It's a learning curve for sure

I love my identify and my faith. I never felt home until I practiced my faith. There's a lot of structure and joy.

Thank you very much for that insight.

OP posts:
Gerbilboy · 27/10/2024 20:37

Zanatdy · 27/10/2024 19:40

Most religions do this. In Islam not allowed to take loans so you have special mortgages where interest is referred to as something else, but is essentially interest

This is not true as a little bit of research online will demonstrate

Bromptotoo · 27/10/2024 20:55

Gerbilboy · 27/10/2024 20:37

This is not true as a little bit of research online will demonstrate

Show quote history

Are there ways a loan compliant with the rules of Islam can be made on a commercial basis?

Zanatdy · 27/10/2024 20:58

Gerbilboy · 27/10/2024 20:37

This is not true as a little bit of research online will demonstrate

Show quote history

I don’t need to research online, my ex partner is a muslim and told me. You’re saying it’s not true that muslims cannot loan money, or that it’s not true that banks dress up the interest as something else? As both are true. They are ways around rules that are hard to follow in modern times.

VisitationRights · 27/10/2024 21:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Humdingerydoo · 27/10/2024 21:27

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

While I understand, and share, your frustration with how this OP was phrased, I really don't think you need to be disrespectful of another religion to make your point.

titbumwillypoo · 27/10/2024 21:42

CabbagesAndCeilingWax · 27/10/2024 20:13

I'm guessing your general view of religion is deeply influenced by/based on Christianity, even if you don't consider yourself to be Christian.

In Christianity, everything is very much about doing your best, loving your neighbour, forgiveness, and as such it's seen as more important to follow the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

In Judaism there is much more emphasis on following the letter of the law. Finding modern work-arounds (eg lights on timers) isn't seen as dodging the law at all, it's seen as following it. In older times it was fairly normal to employ a non-Jew to come and do some of those jobs on the sabbath. It's not weird or wrong, it's just different!

Do you think part of the problem is the word law? The Halakha is often translated as "Jewish law", although a more literal translation might be "the way to behave" or "the way of walking" which sound more like suggestions. If people perceive those workarounds as breaking a Jewish "law" then they're likely to see that as a negative thing, whereas not following a suggestion is more like a cheat day on a diet which more people can relate to.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 27/10/2024 21:42

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What’s that got to do with OP’s question? If you have a question about Sharia law, start another thread. Although it doesn’t sound like you’re interested in hearing a viewpoint other than your own.

VisitationRights · 27/10/2024 21:53

Humdingerydoo · 27/10/2024 21:27

While I understand, and share, your frustration with how this OP was phrased, I really don't think you need to be disrespectful of another religion to make your point.

Show quote history

How is it disrespectful? I didn’t propose the law change, that is Iraq which is governed by sharia. Other countries, also governed by sharia allow the same thing, marriage to children so that in that country, technically, it isn’t rape. I would really like someone to explain this.

in the spirit of the OP why can’t I ask why Islam allows this?

Humdingerydoo · 27/10/2024 21:59

VisitationRights · 27/10/2024 21:53

How is it disrespectful? I didn’t propose the law change, that is Iraq which is governed by sharia. Other countries, also governed by sharia allow the same thing, marriage to children so that in that country, technically, it isn’t rape. I would really like someone to explain this.

in the spirit of the OP why can’t I ask why Islam allows this?

Show quote history

It's your tone and the place you're choosing to ask this that's coming across as disrespectful.

Again, I agree with the point I assume you're trying to make about the OP being rude, disrespectful etc but I don't think sinking to that level is going to help anyone.

Just my opinion of course! You do whatever you want to do. I just know how much I hate it when every thread about Muslims or Islam somehow always turn incredibly anti-semitic, so don't see the point in trying to do the reverse.

whyhere · 28/10/2024 07:49

NCforThisOccasion · 27/10/2024 19:45

The thing about Judaism is that there’s a lot of commentary and interpretation in the Rabbinic tradition, so there’s no absolute “correct” answer to a lot of questions. You could two experts in religious law their opinion about “can I open a can of Coke on Shabbat” and get three different answers.

But here’s one way of thinking about it. The point of the laws is to maintain sanctity - the sanctity of Shabbat, of your home, of your relationships, and so on. In particular, it’s about maintaining a focus on your spiritual life. If you can find a way to do something that doesn’t break the rules, that usually means doing it in an unusual or inconvenient way. So every time you do that thing, you’re reminded that you have to follow these rules. It’s not a way of getting around the rules: it actually reaffirms the rules, because it keeps your mind focussed on them.

So, say you accidentally forgot to leave a light on in the bathroom before Shabbat. But it’s actively dangerous for your elderly dad to go in there in the dark. You should turn the light on (never keep to the rules if it means putting a life at risk), but do it in an uunusual way - maybe flip the switch with your shoulder. That way, you’re keeping a mental focus on the spiritual rules even though you’re doing something that’s normally forbidden.

Basically, the weirdness of the workarounds is the point: if they’re weird, you’ll remember the reason you’re doing them that way.

Really helpful post - thank you. (Christian here, brought up in an orthodox Jewish area thus lots of Jewish friends.)

New posts on this thread. Refresh page