Rules which must be followed by orthodox Jews.

[SchlemielSchlimazel]

I am slightly mystified by various aspects of orthodox Judaism, particularly rules that people are obliged to follow at different times.

Please can anyone who has relevant knowledge explain to me the purpose of having myriad arcane rules and then finding workarounds to circumvent them?

For example being forbidden to carry items in public on the Sabbath and then stringing a wire around the area in order to make it no longer public.

No tearing toilet paper, but you can do it in advance.

Not being allowed to turn lights on and off, so having a special cover which essentially allows you to turn the lights on and off (I think this is called a kosher lamp or kosher switch).

Do Jewish people unquestioningly accept these rules as being deeply respectful and meaningful, or do they privately think they are a bit crazy?

Saw several Orthodox Jewish men coming off the train at King's Cross last week when travelling down to London from Edinburgh - didn't spot them with women though. I found it interesting as its not a thing from my part of the UK. I have only seen Orthodox Jews on TV. That's how rare it is in my neck of the woods.

Most religions do this. In Islam not allowed to take loans so you have special mortgages where interest is referred to as something else, but is essentially interest

Scots Sabbatarians are no slouches about forming subsescts, look how many Kirks a small town on Lewis might have, but Orthodox Judaism can show them a clean pair of heels!!

I live in an area of London which doesn’t have much overt Jewish representation. However because I’ve been here so long I notice a discrete orthodox Jewish presence now. I know where the synagogue is and some Jewish homes ( gosh that sounds sinister). I see young Jewish women who are orthodox but don’t have a wig as they are not married. Recognisable by the thick tights and A line skirts. My grandfather was Jewish and I put it to him that wigs were because Jews lived in foreign lands and a scarf would be too overt. His answer was typically non committal.

Where do live? I live in a predominantly orthodox Jewish area in north London and women are out and about on their own all the time.

I don’t do the loo roll thing, but I did when growing up. You could buy it in sheets - think it was Izal (grim!).
I don’t keep Shabbat anymore but I do keep other aspects - a diluted form of kosher and Passover/Yom Kippur.

Thank you.

I agree life is not static, and different communities obviously deal with things evolving in different ways.

The thing about Judaism is that there’s a lot of commentary and interpretation in the Rabbinic tradition, so there’s no absolute “correct” answer to a lot of questions. You could two experts in religious law their opinion about “can I open a can of Coke on Shabbat” and get three different answers.

But here’s one way of thinking about it. The point of the laws is to maintain sanctity - the sanctity of Shabbat, of your home, of your relationships, and so on. In particular, it’s about maintaining a focus on your spiritual life. If you can find a way to do something that doesn’t break the rules, that usually means doing it in an unusual or inconvenient way. So every time you do that thing, you’re reminded that you have to follow these rules. It’s not a way of getting around the rules: it actually reaffirms the rules, because it keeps your mind focussed on them.

So, say you accidentally forgot to leave a light on in the bathroom before Shabbat. But it’s actively dangerous for your elderly dad to go in there in the dark. You should turn the light on (never keep to the rules if it means putting a life at risk), but do it in an uunusual way - maybe flip the switch with your shoulder. That way, you’re keeping a mental focus on the spiritual rules even though you’re doing something that’s normally forbidden.

Basically, the weirdness of the workarounds is the point: if they’re weird, you’ll remember the reason you’re doing them that way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_mode

Apologies - I was under the impression that women would not generally leave their community on their own. When I have seen orthodox Jews out and about it has always been the entire family as far as I could tell.

Essentially, it is structural. It means you're not creating something, or doing something, that could translate to work.

Sex is allowed I know someone is wondering. And encouraged on Shabbos - because it is a pleasure

I am not Orthodox but really appreciate the 'no phone' thing from Friday night to Saturday night. It feels AMAZING not to be on call for that period. I sort of wonder how people do without it

It's a great excuse to completely switch off and take it easy. You're commanded to, technically. It feels really nice, a bit like an aunt having you as a guest and saying 'You sit down! I insist'. And you do so, and it's nice someone has told you to so there's your excuse

It's a time to bond and talk with family and friends. A time to really share life as family without distraction.

Same! She’s brilliant and i I’m absolutely fascinated by it all… especially the 2k baby wraps 🤣

Thank you for this as I've often had the same question about these 'loopholes' and this explanation makes sense, so these are adaptations to modern life rather than bypassing religious laws.

I live in a very orthodox Jewish area. I love seeing all the families all dressed up on a Saturday presumably going to a synagogue. Or find it fascinating that such young primary aged children go home from school on their own, usually on little scooters and that their parents find it safe enough for that to happen.

But the wig thing confuses me too as covering your hair with hair just seems strange. Maybe it’s because of always having lived in NW London but I can very easily spot a Jewish lady so it doesn’t really allow them to blend in. But it’s nonsense to suggest that they can’t go out on their own.

What about all the hair on that new baby?! She looks like she's wearing a wig!
And the way she does all those wraps is fascinating I never felt confident enough to wear my babies.

You are perhaps thinking of ultra orthodox Jews. Mainstream orthodox Jews certainly don't 'stand out a mile'. And we all go out without men, I've no idea where you got that from!

I'm Jewish, non Orthodox, and find those rules pretty puzzling. I guess the Orthodox stick by them either because they believe they have to, or maybe they just accept it as tradition and do it.

I mean, I try to stick to being fairly kosher at home (but not outside it) in terms of only having meat that's kosher, and not cooking milk and meat together at home because I find that manageable and I want to keep some traditions up, but we're total atheists.

I find the Orthodox workarounds quite funny and daft, my husband (also Jewish) thinks they are hypocritical, much in the same vein as you @SchlemielSchlimazel , as in why bother if you're using workarounds?

Apologies - that hadn't actually occurred to me (stupidly).

I can assure you it is in good faith. I just find it fascinating and have for several years. There is no more to my question(s) than that.

Lots of Jewish women cover their real hair as a constant reminder of their commitment to G-d and husband. Men, likewise, have certain customs only taken on after marriage. Before marriage, all Jewish women don't cover their hair

It isn't a modesty thing as you would think it is and Jewish women are suppose to feel and look beautiful, if they so wish. It is separate to that and very different to hijab, for example, in Islam

Haha this brings me back to when I worked as an aupair in the US for a jewish family. I was really mystified when they came and knocked on my door during my week-end off to ask me to please turn on the telly for the children because they can't. I remember just looking at them and thinking that this is batshit, they are taking the piss. But no, they explained about it being forbidden by their religion. Still found it batshit crazy though because asking someone to do it is the same as doing it yourself.

It was all men coming off the train, no children or women a few Sundays ago at Kings Cross...men's day out possibly. More peaceful that way. Kids make a right rammie on trains.

Next do Islam

Agree with PP that this thread does not appear to be written in good faith.
Despite the ruse ‘genuine curiosity’ it seems to me that the tone of the comments and the OP are written to alienate readers from the subject -ie Jewish people. If I were Jewish and read this thread I would feel ostracised, ridiculed and disrespected. Nothing we write about another group of people in a public online forum should make people feel this way.
Perhaps this is genuinely innocent - and if so I think you could have chosen more respectful and compassionate words to express your apparent perplexity at the customs of Orthodox Jews.
Jewish people have traditions and beliefs like so many other groups of people-we are far more alike than different! There is a word for singling these people out in such a way and speaking negatively- I think you know what it is OP. Let’s not do/be that.

Yes, that's true. I'm sure there are many other examples, an obvious one being that if you're not allowed to do something on a particular day or at a particular time you just delay it or bring it forward.

Sans phones sounds bliss! In essence it's what Sunday is to Christians, though more proscribed I guess, and adhered to by orthodox groups. I remember my grandparents lamenting when the first corner shop opened near them on a Sunday: 'can't people live without buying something for a day?!'