Atheists and proof

[Kdtym10]

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

This isn't a question of looking up to a god though, the question was what proof would convince you of its existence.

Yes, true.

Firstly, I would expect a God to clearly make himself known, especially to those of us that do not believe that he exists.

Secondly, it seems that we've established that, should a God actually exist, he cannot be benevolent (otherwise he would not let innocent children die of incurable cancer)

The gods of most religions are sexed, male and female with some having hermaphrodite characteristics or being able to change sex. The Abrahamic one was called Yahweh, a male god inherited from the Mesopotamian religions. The Israelites adopted him along with a wife, Asherah, also from Mesopotamia. After a couple of centuries, the priesthood banned worship of Asherah and had her shrines destroyed. The story then became that Yahweh had absorbed Asherah, making him both male and female. But defaulting to male, unsurprisingly!

There's just one relic left of a joint Yahweh - Asherah shrine, 9,500 years old. Yahweh's incense burner contains traces of frankincense. Asherah's contained marijuana. https://www.lucid.news/drugs-israelites-and-patriarchy/

Back on Chatgpt??

We're left with "what about a God that does nothing we can ever observe". Such a "God" is meaningless.

This reductive line of reasoning is also disingenuous as no religion advocates for such a God. "Come and join our faith in a God that doesn't care and will never do anything for you or indeed anything at all ever, we don't know if it wants anything or if it even thinks anything, but we've formed a club to believe it is out there, just because. Yeah we don't really have an extra rules or anything in particular, because nothing has ever been asked of us by our God. I guess we just have a feeling it's there and noone can prove it isn't!"

If something is completely unobservable (eg leaves no trace of its existence) then it may as well not exist. Really can something be said to exist if it exerts no influence? In what sense does something that does nothing, exist?

@Lalupalina "Firstly, I would expect a God to clearly make himself known, especially to those of us that do not believe that he exists."
I agree, of course. I find the idea that god requires faith one of the most baffling elements of his demands. But as I said, for me it's not about god specifically- it's about the supernatural generally.

My god, you're rude.

Why do you assume people on Mumsnet can't write decently?

But that’s the very question - what proof would convince you?

All those traits like benevolent, evil, good, bad are human created. If the divine is everything he must be all of these things without distinction.

@Kdtym10

Your tone is so combative and abrupt that it is often shutting down what could be more interesting and meaningful discussion. It's a shame as you make some interesting points and pose some interesting, thought provoking questions. But seem to get frustrated with people very easily and make accusatory / combative statements when it's really not necessary.

[Error correction] The ancient shrine dates to approx 800 BCE, making it just under 3,000 years old. I need a nap 😳

Interesting though @Garlicking, thanks

@Kdtym10 "Back on Chatgpt??"

Wow. Do you want a discussion or not? I assume not- otherwise you wouldn't be so rude!

Why would anyone worship a god with such corrupt principles and doesn’t do anything positive?

‘By what authority do you call yourself “God”?’

But that’s the very question - what proof would convince you?

@Kdtym10

I've said this several times but will say it again:

An omnipotent God that knows everything will know that many of us do not believe he exists

Therefore he will know exactly what he needs to do to convince us of his existence. There are a million ways that he could make himself known!

If he really existed then he would easily know the best way to let us know and convince us!

@Kdtym10 Please let me know your thoughts on this.

Perhaps it is more the case that religion pre-dates the scientific model, and came about to explain (what was, at the time), the inexplicable.

To quote Tony Benn. "What power have you got? Who gave it to? In whose interest do you exercise it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you?"

No it isn't. It is scientific fact.

I know what a rainbow is, for instance, and so does everybody with any intelligence. I know how it is made, and I understand what light waves are, and how that light can be divided into its constituent parts. That is a logical explanation, which anyone can prove easily at home with the minimum of basic equipment, and you don't need faith to believe in it.

No doubt someone will be along in a minute to say "Ah yes, but who made light in the first place?". And some people will say God.

I have adhd and ptsd which can both affect communicating style. maybe you should take less offence and stop judging and criticising people when you don’t understand the background and consider other factors might be at play that influence style.

You don’t have to interact, it’s your choice. Just like it’s your choice to be so judgemental.

How do you explain it?

Evolution. It all started with amino acids in a primordial soup and went on from there.

I guess if a big voice spoke simultaneously to everyone on earth and said it was God then that might convince me, particularly if big, visible miracle were performed infront of enough people?

I don't think this is it. I think its much deeper.

I think humans have evolved a capacity for abstract thought as they use ideas to unite people in groups. Once we moved past small family groups, we needed something else to unite us in a larger social group. Ideas and beliefs are it.

As religion has declined, other ideas have formed to unite people, whether political movements, or social movements or whatever.

But why does light passing through water droplets refract like that?

Light waves? A wave or particle?

What is “scientific fact”

And who did make light in the first place? How do you know it wasn’t God?

No, I'd still think it was a marvellous magic trick. Engineered by Trump or Musk.

I do not believe in God, however people have free will and most problems in the world have been caused by humans themselves out of decision and choice.

So who gave humans the intelligence and ability to create Chatgpt?