Atheists and proof

[Kdtym10]

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

I just find that apart from anything else 'the church/religion' is responsible for so much 'wrong/evil' carried out in history and in present day, that I can't morally align to anything they do.

I’m sorry, I’m not sure what you’re actually saying in your first paragraph.

I know what you’re trying to say in your second paragraph but you’re incorrect. As you will see from my previous posts I have been championing the clear distraction between spiritual thought and scientific methodology. You are quite correct that a distinction should be drawn between the situations where scientific methodology is suitable and where it is not! Looks like we have a lot of thoughts in common.

I note you were after an interesting discussion so I thought we could look at how science attempts to draw together two separate schools of classical and quantum mechanics. I find that intellectually stimulating, I thought given our agreement on the application (or not of scientific methodology) you might enjoy that too. But never mind.

What about the black hole singularity theory or a simulation model as a cosmology? How do you feel about those theories. Or do you like the Catholic Priests idea of the Big Bang?

Did you read upthread about Unit 731 - I struggle quite often with the morality of scientists,

I suspect I know what you are trying to do.
Yup. Slippery obfuscation has it bang on.

"How do you feel about those theories." - has to be the least relevant question you could possibly ask about a scientific theory.

*Acornsoup
I just find that apart from anything else 'the church/religion' is responsible for so much 'wrong/evil' carried out in history and in present day, that I can't morally align to anything they do.

Did you read upthread about Unit 731 - I struggle quite often with the morality of scientists,*

Scientists don't insist I follow their ideology. And then of course there's the evidence.

Also, the evil achieved through science has so often been done in the name of religion.

If anything your stance of science v religion weakens your argument IMO.

Yes, it’s not a valid comparison. Science can be applied unethically, but it doesn’t have any inherent morality. Science is science. (That’s not necessarily to say that science can’t determine values though - an interesting argument for another time).

Religion on the other hand contains teaching and instruction. And some ideas in religion, such as blasphemy, are very bad.

You're welcome. To answer your point, for me, because, I guess, it's once you believe, you believe. I can't explain it any other way. Two of the scriptures that mean most to me from the day I moved from 'it's all a load of tosh' to 'I get it! Thank you and sorry, God' are Mark 9:24 "Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!", and Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see".

Hi Biohive

I am not at all clever and not educated (my brain goes into shut down with thinking-overload) but water isn't just water - there has to be hydrogen and oxygen in certain measures mixed together. As far as I am aware we cannot see either of those elements in their 'natural' lone state - but they are still there. Not that I'm using those words to either prove nor disprove the Holy Spirit. To me, He just 'is'.

Hebrews 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see".

what does this mean?

It is good that you are certain of your certainty.

I am a 'person of faith'. I have never asked for, nor have I ever thought I am entitled to any special treatment nor consideration. Nor have I ever requested special treatment or consideration for other disciples of Christ Jesus. As you have quoted me, I'm not certain I understand the point you are trying to make.

You're welcome. To answer your point, for me, because, I guess, it's once you believe, you believe.

Would any new evidence against any god existing change your belief that God exists?

The op asked what evidence Non Believers would need to change their mind about God existing - and we've seen many examples of things that would indeed change our minds and start seeing that God actually exists.

So, what evidence would those of you who believe that God exists need in order for you to change your mind about his existence?

Religions may have arguments but people are just people. I dont proselytise- no point. TBH my main point was why there is no point in it.

Another commenter said the crux (I think?) Of it is I admit I dont understand everything but the crux for me is what I said just before that which is why obviously you can't prove or convince someone else who's mind is made up ie, trying to understand God the theory not get to know God.

Anyway even mentioning if I believe something probably counts as trying to convert if thats how you take it but in most peoples books it's just a conversation.

The other stuff you said about morals VS science as in, Religion wants to make you behave a certain way. Its just a philosophy e.g. eugenics is based on philosophy. Then again there is organised Religion like e.g. the Catholic church but I'm not part of that and dont agree with any church forcing ppl to live by their rules. I'd rather live in a free society. We do have a Christian history, its not all bad stuff & nobody is forcing anyone to agree with everything.

On the contrary, it was a purposeful and very relevant question. The fact you don’t see it’s relevancy is really irrelevant

I just want to know if we still get Christmas off when CurlewKate comes to power 😄

Totally off topic, but many years ago I read a series of novels by Maisie Moscoe - the 'almonds and raisins' series. It was a generational saga with its beginnings in a Jewish family fleeing the pogroms. If you enjoy easy holiday reading, and you can still get hold of the books, I can recommend.

Oh scientists, and even lay people do insist on an ideology / this thread with demands for “evidence” shows that. Scientists have a very specific way of viewing the world and woa to those who deny that views supremacy, the heretics.

it’s a very valid comparison.

Spirituality has no rules attached to it (you need to distinguish between the divine anc religion)

I would say water is also symbolically creativity, emotion death and life.

@Thegreatestoftheseislove "As you have quoted me, I'm not certain I understand the point you are trying to make."

I quoted you because you said that in your opinion, atheists ask for evidence so they can feel triumphant when none is forthcoming. I don't.

And if you live in the UK you get privileges because of your faith-whether you ask for them or not.

Atheists (I don’t like the term, but using it here as a useful shorthand) haven’t “made up their minds”. They are open to persuasion, we just haven’t been persuaded because the arguments for the existence of divinity are weak.

I’m not sure I quite agree that religions are just benign and you can believe in them if you want to and you don’t have to if you don’t want to. We are in this place now, in this country. But this wasn’t always the case. We had to go through a historical process to separate church and state and promote the values of religious freedom and toleration. The discoveries of science have also continued to dent the credibility of religion over time.

If religion had the power they would not tolerate others not following them. Look at countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia where to leave the religion is to genuinely risk your life.

To me, it means I believe all of God's promises.

Hmmm, that's not a wholly accurate re-telling, but I'm not here to engage in semantics.

I would be interested to hear, though, what privileges you consider disciples of Christ Jesus have if they live in the UK, over and above anyone else?

@Thegreatestoftheseislove I apologise if I misinterpreted you- that's how I read "The fact we can't, or the fact that God does not respond to 'demands' when He has given us all we need, leaves the unbeliever thinking they've triumphed and somehow proved their own point, and that's a fair claim."

As for Christian privilege-the presence of a block Christian voice in the legislature and access to a third more schools to people of faith is surely enough to start with.

Oh, and @1Corinthians13 of course there will be Christmas in My Glorious Reign! It's part of our cultural heritage. And I personally would celebrate the opening of an envelope.

I would be interested to hear, though, what privileges you consider disciples of Christ Jesus have if they live in the UK, over and above anyone else?
It's not restricted to disciples of Jesus; all 'beliefs' get protected. So believers (to pick a random example - Jedi) can spout any non-substantiated, non-evidenced, non-scientific, non-logical stuff and, in law, they are treated as having a view worthy of respect.

No worries. Re ''Christian privilege" - Neither of us are responsible to the history that lead to the current methodology that anyone is ruled by in the UK. To be honest I think that's a different topic altogether. I have no more 'rights' now, as a Christian, than I did all the years I was an unbeliever. If I suddenly became a Jedi tomorrow, my life in the sense about which we are talking, would be no different. You have not convinced me that I have any more, or less, privileges than you.