Atheists and proof

[Kdtym10]

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

dimllaishebiaith
Most of it is us punishing ourselves. I don't see God as punisher although obviously in the Old Testament you have that side but those are IMO stories to help us understand the consequences of the separation from God. Cancer etc is not easy to understand bc I don't think anyone deserves it or is being punished but it's part of the consequence. If you think about it cancer is life gone wrong (cells multiplying where they shouldnt do) so it's like the whole world is a bit out of balance in a way.

If you think about it cancer is life gone wrong (cells multiplying where they shouldnt do) so it's like the whole world is a bit out of balance in a way.

Yes but God could fix that, because he's all powerful. But he doesn't. Because of our "fall from grace". Aka an incredibly large, long collective punishment.

BioHive you could debate that but it sounds more like Greek and Roman ideas of the gods. If you read the Bible it's never showing humans as toys of God.
It's not really like the Matrix either but OK...if you think of them both as just stories but one is a dystopia and one is a story of salvation after a disaster that puts the whole world out of kilter. We still live in that world but we're part of God's Kingdom...like in the prayer: "Thy Kingdom come". So it comes back to faith in that promise for me which is despite all the bad in the world there is a promise and reality that transforms everything. For me even suffering but again that is my personal relationship with God so I know others don't feel that the same way.

dimllaishebiaith
OK well I don't agree obviously but thats your view which I respect.

So to rephase basically unquestioning yes boss so to speak:

In Genesis 2:25 (New International Version), it is written: "Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame." This verse is often interpreted to symbolize the innocence and lack of self-consciousness that Adam and Eve experienced before their disobedience. Their nakedness represents their transparency and openness before each other and before God, without any sense of shame or guilt.

The biblical account suggests that Adam and Eve enjoyed a close relationship with God, walking and talking with Him in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:8). They were given the task of tending to the garden and caring for all living creatures (Genesis 2:15). This role as stewards of creation implies a sense of responsibility and authority over the natural world, reflecting their privileged status as God's chosen representatives on earth.

However, despite their idyllic existence, Adam and Eve were not without limitations. While they possessed the capacity for reason, emotion, and relationship, they lacked the knowledge of good and evil. This lack of knowledge meant that they were unable to discern right from wrong or fully understand the consequences of their actions.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil, which God commanded them not to eat from, represented a test of their obedience and trust in God's wisdom and authority. By disobeying God's command and eating the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve sought to attain knowledge and autonomy apart from God, leading to their expulsion from the Garden and the introduction of sin and suffering into the world.

Source Different websites then recombined the information to make the debates

why do people need religion to begin with ?

All sorts of reasons from needing to try find order within a random world, to bring comfort at times of hardship or torment, to find a sense of place and community, out of fear/powerlessness/hopelessness, to bring meaning and purpose into humankind’s essentially meaningless and purposeless existence and probably lots more.

My DGPs left Lithuania during the pogroms . They followed the Torah to the letter out of sheer terror as to what else might befall them and their children if they failed to observe the law. They were riddled with anxiety and trauma when they eventually got to the Uk. I can totally get why their religion and community meant safety, protection and comfort.

My DPs were brought up going to synagogue, daily after school religious classes, prayers at home etc, but as soon as they could, both rebelled against the whole kit and kaboodle . My siblings and I were brought up without any religious instruction, no bar/batmizvahs or days off school for Jewish holidays and only went to synagogue for our DGPs funerals.

I feel very strongly culturally Jewish and proud of the adversity my family had to try overcome as best they could. I’ve read there is a genetic predisposition towards religiosity. Maybe my DPs and us are missing that gene. My DBs, all my cousins and nephews and nieces all have partners who aren’t Jewish and all of us are atheists.

So to rephase basically unquestioning yes boss so to speak

No idea what you're trying to say, sorry.

Why are you summarising different websites...if it helps you then go for it but I have no idea what to say!

i was trying to work out using bible verses and for you to confim the analysis that basically the point of humans was basically to be gods workers and that god just wanted good workers that did gods bidding before they ate from the tree ?

as then my conclusion would then be, why was humanity not allowed to think and have knowledge before the tree incident ?

Cleaning uptheMess - Thats interesting. What a horrible thing to have gone through (your grandparents I mean). Its quite amazing all that the Jewish people have survived through. I suppose the Torah is part of your whole life if you follow it strictly so that it is a way to be part of something bigger (God and your community) and maybe that's why Judaism has stayed so strong. I hope this is OK to say, I tend to put my foot in it and I know a lot of Jewish people did not survive through those times.

One of my DBs read the Torah out of interest and his take on it is that it’s the pleas, protection rituals, vengeful threats and outbursts of fury, of a persecuted and beleaguered tribe. I can see where he’s coming from

I feel like you don't really understand the story (sorry) and that's not what the summary said either. There's lots of ways to read it but I don't think " workers " as in sort of slaves? Is the meaning. Work became harder after the whole " apple incident " (LOL) but probably we are happier with something productive to do or being creative a bit like God. The story of the Bible is we as humans are in the image of God. I'm not sure I fully understand it myself, the part about knowing Good and Evil but I think it's to do with rebelling and going our own way instead of allowing God to lead us into the knowledge. A bit like the Tower of Babel which is a story about how people tried to reach up to Heaven through their own doing.

Yes I do see that side of it. And surviving against the odds too.

1Corinthians13. No, that’s a lovely thing to say and means a lot at this particularly grim time for Israel and Gaza. The desperately tragic thing is seeing generations of people who are now destined to live with the effects of the present atrocities. Same in so many part of the world, with so many displaced and traumatised people.

Just seeing the effects of prejudice and persecution and displacement work it’s way through the generations of my own family, manifesting in a smorgasbord of anxiety and depressive disorders, emotional disregulation,OCD and an unreasonable amount of suicides, and imagining the same legacy being the destiny of millions of people in Gaza, Israel, Ukraine, Yemen, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, is terrifying and heartbreaking.

The world is a scary place right now and we are definately still passing on the trauma to the next generation. I hope you are OK and your family is OK. Obviously the whole situation is terrible for everyone... I pray for good leadership and maybe the next generation will make the change. 🙏

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Looking at the comment of yours which @BioHive quoted, it is like The Matrix in that Adam & Eve took the red pill. They were suddenly able to see the bigger picture. God was only prepared to keep them in bliss as long as they were ignorant and doing what he wanted. So, like the machine in the film, he made their lives miserable while chasing them to give themselves up. For millennia, and through all the generations.

I've just realised that Agent Smith is the film's messiah 😂

Ohhh I get it...thats not my interpretation but I see what you mean. There's also the shame aspect and the fact that God wasn't using them for fuel or whatever is in the Matrix...I mean it sounded pretty chill and not many rules except that one apple thing leading to " apple incident "...I haven't seen Matrix since I was about 15 😂

If you think about it cancer is life gone wrong (cells multiplying where they shouldnt do) so it's like the whole world is a bit out of balance in a way.

But why would an all powerful God not fix it? Why would he tolerate an innocent child dying from brain cancer???

Definitive proof - if I win the lottery tomorrow night. Everything else is just hot air.

Two days later:
apparently Gods abide the rules of gambling and I shoulda' bought a ticket. Pahh....

Also I don't think God is chasing us to make our lives miserable but more after the knowledge of Good and Evil we ended up with the Law (Torah laws I think) because that kind of gives you the blueprint of how to cope when the world has become a lot tougher. That's probably confusing (it makes sense in my head but I usually don't explain. Very well) .

Fair question but I already gave my answer to my best understanding. You can just think I'm wrong, I don't mind!

I mean if you worshipped a chocolate teapot I would just say " er, ok then". I dont mind but I also don't understand why you want me to give answers that make sense to you about a being (God) you think is made up?

Because there's some debate, I believe Socrates used the method of guiding people to understand and come to conclusions. If the person arrives at these conclusions by thinking about your questions, then it helps them understand your viewpoint more.

The story then became that Yahweh had absorbed Asherah, making him both male and female.

There's just one relic left of a joint Yahweh - Asherah shrine, 9,500 years old. Yahweh's incense burner contains traces of frankincense. Asherah's contained marijuana.

In those 9,500 years new lands have emerged and others have sunk, whole life forms have changed or disappeared... And yet here's Jenny (previously Jack) puffing joint on the sofa.
Now that the Evolution theory is taken from me, I'll have to turn to God... 😭

Are you ok?