Atheists and proof

[Kdtym10]

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

Thanks for your revealing response. It tells me what I need to know about the religious mindset.

LOL you are welcome! I know EVERYTHING about the atheist mindset now I've read your post too.

Yes - the mindset that asks for evidence, which you are unable to provide. An open-minded, sceptical and rational mindset. The religious mindset is dogmatic, tribal, self-defeating, circular, irrational, irritable, closed to challenge and impervious to reason. It’s ultimately dangerous.

I don’t actually like the term atheism. As Sam Harris says, it’s like having a word for non-astrologer.

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To be fair, coming onto a thread specifically asking atheists a question and then saying you find discussions with atheists about religion 'uninteresting' does seem like rather a strange thing to do.

I'm a dog lover, so I wouldn't go onto a thread specifically asking people who are scared of them to share why they don't like dogs... comment saying I do like dogs then say I find discussions with people scared of dogs 'uninteresting'.

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Atheism is not inherently evil though. Faith is not a litmus of 'good' either. It's a belief system. You can have faith and be 'evil'. Your argument furthers my point that faith is centred around fear. Fear of being on the wrong side (there is now wrong side), fear of the hereafter, fear of what others will think of you, your own fear of how good you are based on your perception of good and evil.

FWIW - trying to evangelise via asking atheists what evidence they need and then slamming them, using thinly vailed insults is really not a good look for the faithful.

Where did you get inherently evil from? How can I say this without annoying you - probably not possible so I'll just say you are literally making up a whole other person here not having a conversation with me. Have fun I guess!

I will just repeat my first comment bc yes this is not the thread for me, this is my perspective and TBH I should not have got caught up in a pointless (for me) discussion. It's not really like saying I'm not interested in dogs on a dog topic, just explaining why it never gets anywhere IMO which is relevant to the title even if you disagree.

Not an atheist so maybe not the thread for me but...I believe the only way to faith is through the Holy Spirit. Conversations where people try to prove they're more right or more rational or talk about hypothetical unicorns etc.etc. can go on forever & have nothing to do with knowing God. That comes from the Spirit.

*not wishing to be rude about anyone's beliefs bc I don't " proselytise " (i see it as an open invitation, not for me to push on others) but that's the reality anyone with faith will describe and it's only really going to happen if you're at least open to it... So... what's the point?

I didn't ask the question or insult anyone. If anyone felt insulted that was not my intent and I'm a bit confused as to why but I apologise and i'll see myself out.

CaterhamReconsituted - there's plenty of books etc. About this, I'm not here to defend Christianity bc a) you probably have already heard (so why ask really) and b) other people say it much better. Plus c) I've got better things to do than play mind games, if you don't accept something then thats your business but this is all an unoriginal repeat of the same old problem. Not criticising you I just don't find it interesting, I'd rather get on with my life and faith than explain evil on the Internet.

👆🏼 Here is your reference to evil.

As in the problem of evil etc. The person was asking about that and I said I don't really want to get into it myself but there's lots out there. I didn’t call anyone evil.

It always amazes me how quickly posters who claim to believe in the teachings of Jesus (who they say preached love, kindness, forgiveness etc) turn snarky and rude when people disagree with them.

Even on a thread specifically asking for atheist's opinions where it shouldn't be a shock to hear robust challenges to religious concepts.

Case in point:

LOL you are welcome! I know EVERYTHING about the atheist mindset now I've read your post too.

What would Jesus do? Probably not write stuff like that 🤷🏻‍♀️

Kind, loving and forgiving? Nope. Mardy, sarcastic and dismissive. You're only human of course but perhaps reflect on how you're representing your faith when you speak to people.

Yes maybe that's a fair point, I was just taken a bit aback by the post who decided to take my reply as knowing everythint about a "religious mindset" but yes I should turn the other cheek! I was making the point really you can't say one religious person tells you a whole mindset just like that poster doesn't say everything about atheism. But maybe it came over harsher than I meant it tbh you seem very quick to imagine the worst! I don't think God forbids sarcasm, Jesus could be quite sarcastic sometimes but again apologies if I've hurt anyones feelings. It's meant a bit lighter than you all seem to read it.

Just bringing this back a bit, as I was the poster in question…I was not remotely offended. Rational minds don’t work that way - a mathematician isn’t offended by someone who claims that 2+2=5, they just think they are wrong.

I do think there is an instinctive reaction that religious people have when challenged to provide evidence. In genteel Britain, coming from a Christian who is no doubt a nice person who makes cakes for the Sunday fete, it comes across as irritable. In other contexts around the world blasphemy would be met with murder.

Um... let's see if I understand.

You asked for evidence. I declined for the reasons given. You were not offended (good), you say it tells you everything about the religious mindset, I basically said more or less the same back (making the point its a bit silly to choose one post to say that about.
Then I get this
The religious mindset is dogmatic, tribal, self-defeating, circular, irrational, irritable, closed to challenge and impervious to reason. It’s ultimately dangerous.

OK.

But I'm not seeing me as the irritable person here.

My instinctive reaction when you asked me for evidence, is there is no point me going over ground that's been well and truly talked over already by better brains than I have. And yes you probably do know the Christian answer and don't agree so what is going to be positive about my going over it? I think that's fair enough, it's not really religion its just being pragmatic as I know its a circular conversation. If that's religious mindset then it's fine with me, it just seems sensible.

I'm not offended at all and my feelings haven't been hurt - it's just an anonymous thread on Mumsnet!

I was simply pointing out that there does always seem to be a bit of hypocrisy when religious people start being sarcastic and rude to others if they claim to believe in a religion that preaches the key values of love, kindness and forgiveness.

It does nothing but reaffirm the beliefs of the people who do see religion as often divisive or the cause of tensions / suppression.

That's all 🤷🏻‍♀️

There may be a bit of talking past each other here.

I do think the religious mindset is not set up to engage with challenge. Your response reminds me of those fortune-telling tricksters who say “you’re blocking the energy!” whenever anyone exhibits the slightest bit of scepticism that they can reach their dead grandfather from beyond the grave.

Yes...as I say my words were not intended as rude so hence my apology. Things obviously dont come across as I mean them so that is unfortunate and I am honestly sorry. but if people don't like my faith based on my personal faults then I'm a bit stuck really - maybe I'll just pretend to be an atheist so people can blame you lot instead 🤣

Sorry, my reply is for previous post there.

Yeah OK thats fair enough. I came on to say that I believe faith comes from the Holy Spirit. That's really all i meant to say, I like a debate but for me this one is pointless because everyone already has a set view and that wont change unless maybe you meet God himself. It doesn't block anything, it's like I'm talking about a world that's very different to what you see so why rub it in 😄. (that is genuinely a joke so please don't come at me! LOL.)

I think that we are open to all sorts of possibilities. But we have to be persuaded and convinced by evidence. This isn’t a “set view”, as if it’s some kind of dogmatic entrenched position. It’s neutral.

I do understand that belief in God or the Holy Spirit is important to people. I really don’t think we take talking about it as “rubbing it in” - many of us are actually quite interested in religion, even if we don’t agree with it. (One of my hobbies is Greek mythology, even though I don’t believe in Zeus or Poseidon).

But my evidence is the Holy Spirit...so thats why I'm saying what I'm saying. I don't go around trying to convince anyone bc I see that some just don't get that. And that's not evidence in the way you mean.
It's not belief in the Holy Spirit is important...Well yes it is in a way but the way it works for me is the Holy Spirit us is important for belief if that makes sense? But yes for you its probably completely mad.

I mean there is other evidence but again for me that's all there if you look for it but it's not Proof as such so a) it's up to each person to look for it if they want and b) it might not make a difference bc I am looking with my " God lenses ". Anyway a different lens would be " I don't understand but I know science will explain one day " which is fine if thats you but again (sorry for repeating myself) what's the point in the question in a way. Although tbf you didn't start the thread.

My instinctive reaction when you asked me for evidence, is there is no point me going over ground that's been well and truly talked over already by better brains than I have. And yes you probably do know the Christian answer

@1Corinthians13 I am genuinely interested in the issue of evil and have never had a satisfactory answer or explanation.

As evil and suffering clearly exist in the world, this must mean that 1) either God does not exist or 2) he cannot be omnibenevolent, omnipotent and omniscient.

Most religious people were brought up in religious families.

And if these people had been adopted as babies and been raised by a Buddhist or Muslim family their beliefs would be very different

I get what you're saying @1Corinthians13 A significant number of non-[Christian] believers want proof or evidence of God/Jesus/HolySpirit and seem to think disciples of Christ Jesus can / should / ought to provide it. The fact we can't, or the fact that God does not respond to 'demands' when He has given us all we need, leaves the unbeliever thinking they've triumphed and somehow proved their own point, and that's a fair claim.

Jesus told us to have [spiritual] ears to hear and [spiritual] eyes to see. Open the eyes of my heart, Lord. We need the Holy Spirit in order to 'get' it. Like you, I am not here to proselytise nor evangelise, but simply to share my Jesus with those who ask about Him. I'm 100% certain that people wanting 'proof' will not find it on discussion threads such as this ... but would be delighted to be proved incorrect.