Why (or why not) be Christian?

[Mustardseed86]

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

I have to go out now but if anyone is interested, I've come across a book written by a doctor (he died in 2018) who researched ten medical cases of miraculous healing.

"The late Dr H Richard Casdorph was an experienced doctor and medical researcher. He published more than eighty research papers in a career that spanned almost 6 decades, and earned the respect of his fellow doctors. In the mid 70s he undertook a research project with a difference. He interviewed ten people who claimed to have been miraculously healed of serious conditions. He examined all the case histories – X-rays, medical reports, etc – and also submitted them to medical specialists for review. In all ten cases, the evidence showed that an unusual healing had taken place after the patient received prayer for healing. The cases were written up in a book, The Miracles, which includes some of the X-rays.

https://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings/

I remember a mumsnetter who asked for prayers for her very sick child. One evening religious people prayed, the non religious meditated or send healing thoughts and lit candles-it was a truly powerful, collective experience. At one point the woman who was acting as "celebrant" (sorry, can't think of a better word) said we should lift the child up on prayer "so god could see her". Sadly, she died. Did we not pray hard enough? Not lift her high enough?

No one knows why some prayers are answered and some aren't. As a Christian it is one of the hardest things about our faith - the question of suffering. I've never come across a satisfactory explanation of it. I have also prayed for friends with cancer who have died. I've had cancer myself and have a disabled child.

I can be completely honest and say that it is the one aspect of my faith that I find it difficult to come to terms with. But there are so many other parts of my faith where I am wholly convinced of the existence of God - and that he is good - that this question just sits as a theoretical thorn in my side. All I can say is that I have personal evidence of the existence of a God who loves me and who is good. Why he allows bad things like cancer to happen I don't know. I wish I had an easy answer to this but I don't.

The Christian answer is to blame it on the fall of man and letting the devil into the world where he causes evil. So all evil is caused by the devil. God doesn't always intervene - most of the time because he gave us free will eg wars/murder/hatred are caused by humans, not God - but sometimes he does. Why he intervenes in some cases but not others no one knows. And that's really hard to accept.

Christian? What sort of Christian? How many different Christian denominations are there- and they can be vastly different, with vastly different beliefs.

Almost as varied, and probably more, than Muslims.

Many off these cases were attributed to the healing sermons of Kathryn Kuhlman Kathryn Kuhlman - Wikipedia "Following a 1967 fellowship in Philadelphia, Dr. William A. Nolen conducted a case study of 23 people who said they had been cured during one of her services.[13][14][15][16] Nolen's long term follow-ups concluded that there were no cures in those cases. One woman who was said to have been cured of spinal cancer threw away her brace and ran across the stage at Kuhlman's command; her spine collapsed the next day and she died four months later.[11][17]"

*If the whole country prayed for healing and all the cancer patients were miraculously healed....

Muslims would say it was Allah.
Hindus would say it was their Gods. (repeat for all other religions)
Conspiracists would say it was a government conspiracy.
Astrologers would say that the stars aligned.
Some people would say it was psychosomatic.
Some people would say it was the covid vaccine.
Some people would say it was aliens.
Some people say it was a scientific breakthrough.
Some people would say the pharmaceutical companies put the cure for cancer in tap water etc.*

But we'd know for sure that one of the above was the reason.

We could then do further experiments and eliminate them one by one!

God doesn't always intervene - most of the time because he gave us free will eg wars/murder/hatred are caused by humans, not God - but sometimes he does. Why he intervenes in some cases but not others no one knows.

Maybe he's busy with other, more important things to do?

What’s more important ? He seems pretty selective and selfish.

The full quote:

An estimated two million people reported that they were healed in her meetings over the years.[12]

Following a 1967 fellowship in Philadelphia, Dr. William A. Nolen conducted a case study of 23 people who said they had been cured during one of her services.[13][14][15][16] Nolen's long term follow-ups concluded that there were no cures in those cases. One woman who was said to have been cured of spinal cancer threw away her brace and ran across the stage at Kuhlman's command; her spine collapsed the next day and she died four months later.[11][17]

Nolen's analysis of Kulhman came in for criticism from believers. Lawrence Althouse, a physician, said that Nolen had attended only one of Kuhlman's services and did not follow up with all of those who said they had been healed there.[18] Dr. Richard Casdorph produced a book of evidence in support of miraculous healings by Kuhlman.[19] Hendrik van der Breggen, a Christian philosophy professor, argued in favor of the claims.[20] Author Craig Keener concluded, "No one claims that everyone was healed, but it is also difficult to dispute that significant recoveries occurred, apparently in conjunction with prayer. One may associate these with Kathryn Kuhlman's faith or that of the supplicants, or, as in some of Kuhlman's teaching, to no one's faith at all; but the evidence suggests that some people were healed, even in extraordinary ways.".[21]

Dr. Richard Owellen, a member of the cancer‐research department of the Johns Hopkins Hospital who appeared frequently at Kuhlman's services, testified to various healings that he said he had investigated.[22]

^God doesn't always intervene - most of the time because he gave us free will eg wars/murder/hatred are caused by humans, not God - but sometimes he does. Why he intervenes in some cases but not others no one knows.

Maybe he's busy with other, more important things to do?^

What’s more important ? He seems pretty selective and selfish.

Yes, exactly. Maybe he's busy eating or drinking? Or maybe he's busy creating new worlds whose humans he's looking after better than us?

@Gumbear "Why he intervenes in some cases but not others no one knows. And that's really hard to accept."

I agree. It's one of the many reasons that I cannot and will not accept it. When I think of that Mumsnetters child, and all the people who had such hope and prayed with joy and confidence...

He’s probably in the pub! I wonder if he gets drunk or his special powers prevent hangovers 🍾🍻

You can equally well google studies that come out with the exact opposite result to yours. Googling isn't the gotcha that you seem to think it is...

.

I can't imagine one is meant to take eg Revelation literally. Or parables told by Jesus. Doesn't Augustine say we should read Scripture by the light of reason?

But the "light of reason" would tell you that it's all a load of nonsense!

Well, as I said upthread, being a Christian requires faith. Something that is Spirit as God is cannot be proven by science, Spirit doesn't exist in the physical sense. If Spirit manifests it is then physical but once that physicality is observed it is physical and the supernatural/ spiritual element is moot.

As a Christian, I am comfortable with this. I am happy to follow a faith which deals with the unknowable and unprovable. According to science I am something of an anomaly having survived against the odds. I observe science but am overjoyed to experience that is not all there is. I don't like feeling like another statistic or number. I am pleased to be an exception to the rule.

So all the atheistic arguments fall flat. I have experienced people die all around me, those close to me whilst I survived (stage 3 cancer survivor). Walk in my shoes then tell me I was wrong to find hope in Christ and find comfort in that and to find peace in church and during funeral services. Tell me that to my face.

@heyhohello "Walk in my shoes then tell me I was wrong to find hope in Christ and find comfort in that and to find peace in church and during funeral services. Tell me that to my face."

I wouldn't dream of it.

@CurlewKate. Thank you. Appreciated.

I think your post is very sad, it worries me that anyone would use 'faith' as a reason to believe anything because there is no reasoning in it and you could believe literally anything based on faith.

You are not wrong to find comfort in anything you wish, but you are wrong to think that because it brings you comfort it must be real. That, I would be happy to say to your face during a religious debate, as with anything I have stated here. If you don't want people to question your beliefs, don't get involved in a debate about them.

I think it’s powerful that your faith has gotten you through some very hard times. I think this is the crux of everything- we believe what need to believe to get through life. Your belief in Christ has helped you immeasurably, and that’s a good thing. But that’s subjective and it doesn’t apply to everyone. Atheistic arguments do not challenge your personal faith, they challenge the idea that a god exists even though there is no proof of the existence of such a god. Just because someone says it’s true, doesn’t mean it is. Just because it’s written in some holy text, doesn’t mean it’s true.

Everything should be open to being challenged and critically observed, critically discussed and this especially applies to religion, given all the claims it makes. And this applies even more so to god - given how powerful people claim that he is and how much devotion he is given.

So no, atheistic arguments do not fall flat. Faith is subjective and personal, but it’s not necessarily a universal truth. Like I said, you believe what you need to believe to get through life, and on an individual, personal level that is enough for you.

@professorcunning,

I think your post is very sad, it worries me that anyone would use 'faith' as a reason to believe anything because there is no reasoning in it and you could believe literally anything based on faith.

No, I couldn't believe 'literally anything', because I am of the Christian faith. I follow Christ. This offers more hope than the confines of human knowledge and expectations, especially for someone whose survival and success has been an exception to the statistical rule. Perhaps I should use the word exceptional? Maybe then you would see the joy in it?

You are not wrong to find comfort in anything you wish, but you are wrong to think that because it brings you comfort it must be real.

It is real, as I am here, living and breathing. 🙂

That, I would be happy to say to your face during a religious debate, as with anything I have stated here. If you don't want people to question your beliefs, don't get involved in a debate about them.

I am not debating I am simply declaring my beliefs. Debating is eristic, an intellectual pissing context born out of ego and the desire to win at something. I don't have a need for it.

@heyhohello Of course I respect your finding comfort in religion. We all find comfort in different ways/things.

However, this thread is about whether a god exists. It is about the lack of evidence. It is important that we challenge and critically question claims about such a supposedly powerful god, given the lack of evidence and given his inexplicable motives?!

I'm pleased that you recovered from cancer - that is excellent - but you may well have recovered without God, or you may never had had cancer without God. I guess I'm saying that we can't give God only credit when positive outcomes occur.

@NotSoBetty

Atheistic arguments do not challenge your personal faith, they challenge the idea that a god exists even though there is no proof of the existence of such a god.

This has been covered. When we talk of God, we are talking of Spirit which is not physical and doesn't materially exist in the classic sense. Any manifestation that is physical can be then observed physically and the Spirit element in it is moot. Observing God involves having a regard (and faith in) the things that are pre and post physical existence.

Following on from this, how can you challenge what you don't understand or have any appreciation of?

@Lalupalina

However, this thread is about whether a god exists. It is about the lack of evidence. It is important that we challenge and critically question claims about such a supposedly powerful god, given the lack of evidence and given his inexplicable motives?!

No it is not. The thread also asks why be a Christian? I am posting about my Christian faith. I am declaring my faith and elaborating on it. I don't engage in debate regarding my my Christian faith.