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Why (or why not) be Christian?

1000 replies

Mustardseed86 · 29/02/2024 19:25

Continuing the "Will you make it to heaven?" threads started by @VincitVeritas which have become a more wide-ranging discussion about matters of faith, Christian belief.

Hope to see you on here when the last thread runs out of space! And new posters welcome too.

We've recently been discussing the evidence for God, the soul and life after death, and debating what constitutes reliable evidence in this context.

Also some talk about whether it's accurate to say humans are 'sinful' and why/why not, some discussion of Paul and the validity of his writings and status as an apostle, how the Bible was formed (and why other writings didn't make the canon) the basis of morality/ethics, whether Jesus's message was intended for an excusively Jewish audience, the meaning of Christ (or Messiah), church tradition and different denominations, end times and probably more I've forgotten!

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Gumbear · 02/03/2024 09:28

Parker231 · 02/03/2024 09:16

It’s not physically possible to regain your slight if you are totally blind. Some vision problems can regain some sight from surgery but a prayer won’t change anything.

Something isn't a miracle unless it's physically impossible. That's the whole definition of it.

Parker231 · 02/03/2024 09:32

@Reallybadidea - music can be really powerful. I get goosebumps listening to Freddie Mercury!

pointythings · 02/03/2024 09:34

It is possible to regain sight if the original problem was conversion disorder.

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 09:37

The most detailed record of the life and death of Jesus comes from the four Gospels and other New Testament writings. “These are all Christian and are obviously and understandably biased in what they report, and have to be evaluated very critically indeed to establish any historically reliable information,” Ehrman says. “But their central claims about Jesus as a historical figure—a Jew, with followers, executed on orders of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, during the reign of the Emperor Tiberius—are borne out by later sources with a completely different set of biases.”

Within a few decades of his lifetime, Jesus was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians in passages that corroborate portions of the New Testament that describe the life and death of Jesus.

Historian Flavius Josephus wrote one of the earliest non-biblical accounts of Jesus.

The first-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who according to Ehrman “is far and away our best source of information about first-century Palestine,” twice mentions Jesus in Jewish Antiquities, his massive 20-volume history of the Jewish people that was written around 93 A.D.

Thought to have been born a few years after the crucifixion of Jesus around 37 A.D., Josephus was a well-connected aristocrat and military leader in Palestine who served as a commander in Galilee during the first Jewish Revolt against Rome between 66 and 70 A.D. Although Josephus was not a follower of Jesus, “he was around when the early church was getting started, so he knew people who had seen and heard Jesus,” Mykytiuk says.

In one passage of Jewish Antiquities that recounts an unlawful execution, Josephus identifies the victim, James, as the “brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah.” While few scholars doubt the short account’s authenticity, says Mykytiuk, more debate surrounds Josephus’s lengthier passage about Jesus, known as the “Testimonium Flavianum,” which describes a man “who did surprising deeds” and was condemned to be crucified by Pilate. Mykytiuk agrees with most scholars that Christian scribes modified portions of the passage but did not insert it wholesale into the text.

Tacitus connects Jesus to his execution by Pontius Pilate.

Another account of Jesus appears in Annals of Imperial Rome, a first-century history of the Roman Empire written around 116 A.D. by the Roman senator and historian Tacitus. In chronicling the burning of Rome in 64 A.D., Tacitus mentions that Emperor Nero falsely blamed “the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius.”

As a Roman historian, Tacitus did not have any Christian biases in his discussion of the persecution of Christians by Nero, says Ehrman. “Just about everything he says coincides—from a completely different point of view, by a Roman author disdainful of Christians and their superstition—with what the New Testament itself says: Jesus was executed by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate, for crimes against the state, and a religious movement of his followers sprang up in his wake.”

“When Tacitus wrote history, if he considered the information not entirely reliable, he normally wrote some indication of that for his readers,” Mykytiuk says in vouching for the historical value of the passage. “There is no such indication of potential error in the passage that mentions Christians."

Additional Roman texts reference Jesus.

Shortly before Tacitus penned his account of Jesus, Roman governor Pliny the Younger wrote to Emperor Trajan that early Christians would “sing hymns to Christ as to a god.” Some scholars also believe Roman historian Suetonius references Jesus in noting that Emperor Claudius had expelled Jews from Rome who “were making constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus.”

Ehrman says this collection of snippets from non-Christian sources may not impart much information about the life of Jesus, “but it is useful for realizing that Jesus was known by historians who had reason to look into the matter. No one thought he was made up.”

https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence

The Bible Says Jesus Was Real. What Other Proof Exists? | HISTORY

Some argue that Jesus wasn't an actual man, but within a few decades of his lifetime, he was mentioned by Jewish and Roman historians.

https://www.history.com/news/was-jesus-real-historical-evidence

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 09:38

pointythings · 02/03/2024 09:34

It is possible to regain sight if the original problem was conversion disorder.

He was stabbed in the eye in a war/battle 30 years ago. He had no sight in it at all.

professorcunning · 02/03/2024 09:44

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 09:38

He was stabbed in the eye in a war/battle 30 years ago. He had no sight in it at all.

Now I'm calling bullshit!

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 09:51

Of course you do. That's my point. People say that God doesn't exist because miracles don't happen but when they do happen they don't believe them because they're physically impossible 🤷‍♀️

And I wouldn't expect you to believe some random stranger telling you stuff like this over the Internet, especially when it goes against your world beliefs.

The point is that you can't use the so-called lack of miracles as reliable evidence that God doesn't exist because the people who've experienced miracles don't get believed.

As I said before, even people who've witnessed miracles, like the guy who spontaneously came out of organ failure, still don't change their mind about God.

professorcunning · 02/03/2024 09:57

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 09:51

Of course you do. That's my point. People say that God doesn't exist because miracles don't happen but when they do happen they don't believe them because they're physically impossible 🤷‍♀️

And I wouldn't expect you to believe some random stranger telling you stuff like this over the Internet, especially when it goes against your world beliefs.

The point is that you can't use the so-called lack of miracles as reliable evidence that God doesn't exist because the people who've experienced miracles don't get believed.

As I said before, even people who've witnessed miracles, like the guy who spontaneously came out of organ failure, still don't change their mind about God.

Because they're not miracles. Sometimes they're invented, sometimes they're everyday occurrences that some people don't understand and sometimes they're rare occurrences that few or even no people understand, but even if they are impossible it STILL doesn't point towards a god.

If prayer being answered is proof for your god existing, then every prayer not answered is proof of non-existence so on balance, there is no god.

Lalupalina · 02/03/2024 09:57

All we know is she claims she prayed for him the previous night (and I assume that she'd never done that before for some reason) and she believes the Christian god asked her to do it. For some reason it makes sense for god to ask a woman to pray for a man so god can then heal man rather than just healing him and/or speaking to him directly! I don't see why you don't see problems with her story.

It sounds ridiculous and is a desperate attempt to justify their beliefs.

CurlewKate · 02/03/2024 10:01

@Mustardseed86 "If you're interested, maybe you could challenge yourself to find out if there are in fact any well attested, inexplicable events or phenomena that point towards the supernatural."

Two things here. Firstly-I have. And found none. Secondly- it's really up to the people who attest that such events or phenomena happen to offer evidence that they do. There is enough evidence that they don't.

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:03

NotSoBetty · 02/03/2024 07:26

The gospels refer to Jesus performing 37 “miracles ”. Billions upon billions of years of earthly and human evolution, but gods emissary/god incarnate only turns up on earth, during the Iron Age, and performs a few (37) miracles in only one tiny region of earth, to actually a few spectators? Only 37 miracles to demonstrate “his” power? Why not help and heal thousand of more people? Bill Gates (for all his flaws) and his foundation, and his overall philanthropy, have saved millions of lives, throughout the world, bettered millions more, and he’s not asking for their souls, in exchange.

The claim that Jesus has made, as being the son of this all mighty, omnipresent, all seeing god, surely 37 miracles is disappointing and proves absolutely nothing. And again these miracles were written down by men who had only heard about them, over hundreds of years after Jesus’s death.

John 21:25 says:

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

CurlewKate · 02/03/2024 10:05

@Gumbear It's usually considered respectful to quote your sources.

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:06

CurlewKate · 02/03/2024 10:05

@Gumbear It's usually considered respectful to quote your sources.

I did? Did I miss one somewhere?

Lalupalina · 02/03/2024 10:12

People say that God doesn't exist because miracles don't happen but when they do happen they don't believe them because they're physically impossible

But they don't happen! Miracles are just reported events that we cannot (or more likely have decided not to) explain rationally. Calling anything a human being cannot explain a "miracle" is a tribute only to our gullibility and desperation to be cosmologically meaningful.

Why doesn't God do some of the really huge miracles he used to do (as Christians claim) to prove his existence once and for all?

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:15

Maybe because you would explain it away and say it wasn't a miracle?

Lalupalina · 02/03/2024 10:18

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:15

Maybe because you would explain it away and say it wasn't a miracle?

We could do an experiment: a whole country could decide to pray together and ask God to, say, cure all our citizens of cancer? Or to heal all young critically ill children?

And then we'll see whether there is a god who can actually perform a true 'miracle'!!

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:21

It didn't work with the 80 people who came to the gathering for the man who spontaneously came out of a coma, multiple organ failure and reversed brain damage. There is always going to be a reason to disbelieve it.

CurlewKate · 02/03/2024 10:40

@Kdtym10 "Wjat do you want as proof? I’m guessing something scientific? See all the other posts about why a scientific framework is not suitable to examine the existence or non- existence of the divine. "

Well, I'd like, for example, a miraculous healing that happened in a properly staffed modern hospital and which medical staff could find no possible explanation for. That would help.

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:41

Does the guy in my example not count? Even the doctors were calling him the miracle man.

NotSoBetty · 02/03/2024 10:51

Reallybadidea · 02/03/2024 09:21

I was brought up as a Christian and totally and utterly believed that Jesus was my Lord and saviour. Pretty much everything in my life was centred around God - I read the Bible, I prayed and talked to God constantly. I asked for him to work through me, to guide me. He was truly the centre of my life.

Then I slowly came to realise that all the experiences I'd had of God throughout the years could easily be explained by human psychology. That feeling of God moving during worship - the power of music and suggestion. The times I'd heard God speaking to me were just me wanting to believe. The amazing things that happened were just a combination of deep desire to see what I wanted to see and coincidence.

I'm now an atheist and my life is much better and happier and I feel more free because I'm no longer constantly worrying about what 'god' wants me to do. I make my own choices and I choose to live a life that I hope is good and moral, but because it is the right way to live, not because an imaginary god wants me to.

Exactly, because no one knows what this god wants because no one has ever met him. Religious leaders, of all religions, telling people that they know what god wants - they absolutely don’t. The Word of God is in fact the word of man. As for holy scriptures, again, they are not from god, but written by men claiming to know what god wants, but they actually don’t because they have met to supreme being.

Lalupalina · 02/03/2024 11:00

Does the guy in my example not count? Even the doctors were calling him the miracle man.

That's just hearsay.

What do you think about doing a proper test of God's existence and ability to perform 'miracles'?

As a country we could all decide to pray together and ask god to heal all the cancer patients in our country.

If he does exist and is kind then surely he'd answer our prayer and indeed heal all cancer patients. That would unequivocally prove his existence and ability to perform miracles!

NotSoBetty · 02/03/2024 11:06

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 10:03

John 21:25 says:

"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written."

If that was the case surely they could have mentioned a few more miracles? If Jesus did perform so many more miracles a lot more would be mentioned, a lot more, instead of only 37? If indeed there were more, there would not be needed a lot more space, say in the bible, in mentioning them - maybe an additional book, or an entire gospel, or maybe a few more verses? But, clearly John was being very vague there.

But most importantly the Gospal of John was no written by John himself, because he had been dead many years before that. So, again, it’s all second/third/fourth accounts, so essentially hear say. So absolutely no proof of anything. The bible is not a historical document.

NotSoBetty · 02/03/2024 11:11

NotSoBetty · 02/03/2024 10:51

Exactly, because no one knows what this god wants because no one has ever met him. Religious leaders, of all religions, telling people that they know what god wants - they absolutely don’t. The Word of God is in fact the word of man. As for holy scriptures, again, they are not from god, but written by men claiming to know what god wants, but they actually don’t because they have met to supreme being.

Meant to say that they haven’t met the this supreme being.

Gumbear · 02/03/2024 11:11

@Lalupalina look up the National Day of Prayer during Dunkirk 1940.

CurlewKate · 02/03/2024 11:14

@Gumbear "Does the guy in my example not count? Even the doctors were calling him the miracle man."

Sorry, no. I'd have to see statements from the doctors involved at the very least. Surely you can see that?

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