Does anyone feel like they took the red pill?

[Barbarbarann]

DH and I are active Christians. I was having an interesting conversation with DH the other day and we were talking about how being saved and following Jesus feels like we took the red pill from the Matrix. It feels like our eyes are opened to how evil is operating in the world and you can't unsee it. I feel like we are in an age where evil is deemed good and good is deemed evil and we are the only ones that can see it and others are mostly blasé, heads in the sand or mislead.

I wonder if anyone else out there feels that too? When I mentioned it to some ladies at a Bible study yesterday - I was met with blank looks. I am not some militant, Bible-thumping conspiracy theorist either, just someone who quietly reads their bible daily and prays.

Hear, hear. I’m an atheist, and contentedly so, but I’m as concerned by human suffering as anyone, and do my best to live ethically and contribute to society, because I think an adult society recognises it needs to forge its own meanings and ethics.

No divine being is waiting on the far side of death with a stick and a carrot.

Musing about evil and the sheeple not recognising it as you do isn’t helping any one. What good are you doing?

@dimllaishebiaith this thread isn't just for Christians. I think abortion is wrong per se, I'm not citing any biblical or Christian reasons.

I didn't think the thread was just for Christians. Given the context of the thread and your resulting condemnation of abortion it seemed that you were a Christian

But I fully understand some people are forced birthers without religon

@brokenbutterflymagnum the act of rape is evil, not the victim! I would never dictate to a woman what she should do, it is her choice. I wouldn't encourage or condone abortion though. I would not have an abortion myself as I believe abortion is evil.

I don't understand how people can state that murder is wrong, yet abortion is wrong in some circumstances but OK in others. But I understand that my opinion is counter cultural and many disagree. I accept that, but I'm not going to change my mind. I am sad that the world condones abortion though.

@dimllaishebiaith the thread appeared on the active threads and that is why I read it

Yes I understand that

As I said, your comments in the context of the thread made it sound like you were Christian. In a more general thread about abortion I would not have made that assumption as I know not all forced birthers are religious.

I'm not sure what else you want me to say. I get you aren't a Christian, I don't need an explanation of, or justification for why you are or aren't on the thread.

Me and my son had a conversation once about abortion when you find out that the baby has something which would affect its life in a negative way, he was born with Cystic fibrosis and was of the opinion that he would abort a child with that same condition (obviously he can’t get pregnant but it was about the disease not the pregnancy bit) I on the other hand wouldn’t abort (I didn’t know during pregnancy anyway) but it’s not always a case of having an abortion to get rid of someone who needs more care and only “perfect children” will do and it was only hearing my son talking about how it affects his quality of life and how he wouldn’t wish that on anyone it made me realise things I hadn’t even considered. I am 100% pro choice btw and always have been but it annoys me that people think women are just out here getting abortions for selfish reasons when it’s never as black and white as that

And you’d prefer what — women forced to endure unwanted pregnancies and give birth? I consider that considerably more ‘evil’ than terminating a pregnancy.

I have a friend who had a termination at 26 weeks because her much wanted baby had a genetic condition incompatible with life.

The likes of @rockpoolingtogether want to condemn people like her to carrying those pregnancies to term and then watching their babies die. Now that's what I call evil.

I agree

I had to give birth at nearly full term to a dead baby

It was a miracle I was pregnant in the first place and I've never been pregnant since.

I desperately wanted a child.

Despite all that if I had been forewarned of what was going to happen, I would have had an abortion at a much earlier stage of the pregnancy to have spared myself as much of that experience I could have done. In my case it was unpredictable.

In cases where it is predictable, anyone forcing women to go through what I went through is evil and abhorrent.

@Corondel I'd prefer women not to have unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

I suppose the disagreement/ divergence in opinion proves to a certain extent what the OP was saying. I won't say any more as I don't want to upset anyone by stating what I see as natural law. Suffering is unpleasant and a burden, but abortion is wrong. I won't change my mind on that.

I'm a Christian. I think it's the situations that make abortion the only / best option for a woman that are evil. It's 'best endeavours' people as to what for the best. I don't attempt to judge individuals.

Suffering is unpleasant and a burden, but abortion is wrong. I won't change my mind on that.

So you are fine with the death of Savita Halappanavar then? Wow.

@pointythings to be fair if people are attempting to draw a line it is incredibly difficult. How can anyone? We are dealing with people and injustice after injustice.

What I get from my Christianity is hope. Hope that things can get better if people are dealt with in love rather than treated as a statistic or demonised.

I agree with this.

I don't think you should ignore the fact that pregnancy = a human life but the reality is that women aren't always able or willing to support/gestate that life. And obviously serious medical conditions in the foetus or mother, issues like rape, make it all the more important that abortion remain safe and legal. So many pregnancies end in miscarriage anyway, which is often really traumatic, but I don't think anybody is genuinely equating a foetus at say 5 weeks before there is anything like a nervous system or 'sentience', with a fully developed baby.

The whole issue does make me sad but I don't think all killing is or should be unlawful, or described as murder. It's akin to the principle of self-defence IMO and I include pregnancies which don't directly threaten the life of the mother - or more accurately, I acknowledge that all pregnancies do this to some extent.

@Mustardseed86 well yes. What about the killing in war. Is that murder? The soldiers are often barely adults.

The people that view people as simply 'cannon fodder' - 'expendable' and nothing else is another matter.

It's not something I could do unless someone was directly threatening my life or that of my family, but no I don't think that's 'murder', just a tragic waste of life. I think wars should only be fought in self-defence or defence of the vulnerable, and according to the laws governing war, but it's always a pretty murky area, isn't it? I just feel for the soldiers who are put into that position of being brutalised, because it must change you on some fundamental level. It's even worse when there's conscription, but if I'd been born a century ago the likelihood is I would probably see that as normal, or needed, so maybe it's a bit of a luxury belief. I'm lucky that I'm not in that position myself or seeing my loved ones go off to fight.

Similarly, I don't think I could ever have an abortion unless it was to save my own life. I've had a very unexpected pregnancy which changed my life completely and that was tough in lots of ways (my mental health was very wobbly and it also closed a lot of doors and led to some quite precarious times), so I can at least say I've 'been there' so I know what I would do. OTOH that's my experience, everyone's is different and I haven't faced medical issues or pregnancy from rape thank goodness. I'm not mentioning that as a judgement on others, if anything it makes me empathise more with other women in that situation. It did make me feel very protective and how precious that life was too, though. So I see it from both sides, but I'm very against judging others on this issue or making abortion illegal.

Indeed @Mustardseed86. I think it's impossible to judge too. People can be brutalised. Just look at child soldiers.

For me, having a child that was diagnosed as severe special educational needs who is now at university without any additional support I know how wrong/limited a 'professional' prognosis can be.

Equally I'm a Stage 3 cancer survivor....

@Mustardseed86 you're someone who recognises that there are no absolute black/white scenarios. Life is complex. Dismissing something like abortion or killing in wartime as 'evil' is just too simplistic.

All we can do is act in such a way as to prevent as many such situations arising as we possibly can. That means casting our vote accordingly, raising our voices against war, supporting women with accessing contraception and excellent maternity care, promoting economic equality and eradicating poverty. We also need to admit that we cannot be 100% successful at any of those things. Labelling things 'evil' in complex situations gets in the way of achiving those objectives.

Labelling things 'evil' in complex situations gets in the way of achiving those objectives.

@pointythings and that's the message I get from Christianity too. I know some people don't. But I don't know exactly why...perhaps they have had a lot to deal with in their backgrounds before they come to that realisation.

But I refuse to believe some are doomed from the outset otherwise what is the point?

@heyhohello as I've said before, you are the kind of Christian I have time for - one with a deep human empathy. It's so incredibly important to never forget that you're human, fallible and don't know everything.

I also like to think nothing is doomed from the outset - but where the boundaries of that nothing are is more complicated. Is an individual woman wants to believe that there might be a miracle for her individual doomed pregnancy and wants to carry it to term, I'm at peace with that. But to force another individual woman who does not believe that and wants to terminate that doomed pregnancy to carry it instead is evil.