Anyone feel like they've joined a cult - Christian perspective please

[Sweetladyjane]

This might be a rambly so I apologise in advance for this.

I recently left the evangelical church where I became a Christian after falling out with the pastors after they told me I needed to rely on God more than the Dr's for my bipolar. It wasn't a friendly leaving and I still have a lot of resentment about feeling pushed out.

I joined a CofE church where it seems the teaching is very authority driven and although they talk a lot about building a relationship with Jesus they are also very anti women leaders and take a strong line on LGBTQ+ which doesn't align with my beliefs.

This coupled with having a non-Christian boyfriend (he's an atheist) I'm feeling pushed out again. I work for a Christian charity and one of my colleagues is a fundamentalist and uses every opportunity we're alone in the office to preach at me. He even went so far as to send me scripture quotes just before I went away with my boyfriend for the weekend so he could meet my parents.

I'm feeling very confused about where I fit in at church - or even if I do and a little like I've been brain washed.

It's further complicated by the fact that I work for a Christian charity and am also a Street Pastor and volunteer in the college chaplaincy so I would have to stop the street pastors and chaplaincy work if I wasn't a member of a church and I love both of these activities and feeling a calling to help people and I'm not sure if I could find other voluntary work in the secular world.

I guess I'm looking for direction on where to go with these feelings and how to make a decision on if I leave church and go it alone.

Thank you for reading and any advice gratefully received!

Plenty of Quakers are Christians. And they don’t have a whole bunch of rituals.

You need the united reformed church or the Methodists, but particularly the former have very open views. Certainly locally to me you couldn’t hope for a more liberal and inclusive bunch.

I'm an atheist so feel free to ignore me, but I recently came across an idea re fundamentalists which may be relevant to your situation, OP.

It was in one of Bart Ehrmann's 'misquoting Jesus' podcasts (recommended on another thread - he's an eminent biblical historian). He commented that fundamentalists idolise the Bible. Essential, they take the words in whatever translation they use as sacred - the book (with all its flaws and inconsistencies if you even slightly study the Bible rather than doing 'Bible study'!) becomes their deity.

So yes, in one meaning of the word, fundamentalism is a cult.

Try different churches. My husband (a vicar) runs a church you describe as wanting. He's encourages LBGT attendance, is pushing for gay marriages and has is the first vicar in this church to have female clergy. There was opposition to this and some regulars left but more have joined. There are many churches as you describe but also many like the one you want. Keep looking, you will find the right one for you, they are out there!

Maybe Christianity isn't for you. Maybe read the Quran and research Islam. Iv heard of many people who have done so and finally feel like they have answers. And by research I don't mean social media and what ppl want you to think of Islam. But actual open-mindedness.

I'm with DrawingPins. Try a local village CofE parish church. I am deeply suspicious of anything evangelical.

Brilliant answer.

Im sorry you’ve felt pushed out but most bible believing churches generally stand in opposition to the secular views you’ve mentioned you support.

if you were to find a church that supported the secular views you support, it wouldn’t be a bible believing church and not one that our lord would be happy with.

It seems like there's some movement needed on both sides:

1. in terms of the church you attend & want to belong to, it sounds like both the ones you have been with so far have been talking a lot about sex and relationships. These are an element of Christian teaching, but for most Christians they're not a frequent source of argument. It might be better for you to look for a Church which is comfortable in its position (whatever that might be) and able to get on with its core mission of praise and preaching. Looking from the outside into the CofE, it seems as though many many parishes are constantly having to debate their position on sexuality and gender issues. I'm a Catholic, we hold quite a conservative line on sex and sexuality (although you will find many Catholics who are quietly more liberal), but it's not something that comes up all the time within the church. I would encourage you to look for a church where being dragged into culture wars has not become a central focus. That is some people's mission, to be on the front line debating these things, but it doesn't sound like it would be yours.
2. From the other side, it may be worth you taking some time to form yourself in Christian theology and examine where you stand with regards to Christian teaching and your own conscience. I'm not saying which line is correct in terms of authority, biblical interpretation etc., but it is worth saying that Christianity is counter-cultural and will involve personal challenges in terms of which teachings are the most difficult to accept for each individual. It's not simply a question of finding a church which aligns with what you already believe, but examining what you already believe and seeing how much of it is formed by Christ and how much by the world around you. A good spiritual director can be really helpful, but if there isn't one you trust then plenty of reading that challenges you to look at your place in the Church and in the world.

Apart from that, I would look at making an official complaint against your co-worker if he continues to harangue you. Being a Christian charity doesn't give him free reign to impose a particular interpretation of Christianity on you. And if you wanted to look elsewhere, then there are plenty of secular charities which would welcome more volunteers.

I hope this is clear. I don't have time to proof read as I have to run off to a church service!

There are other churches that are not like the ones you have experienced. As PP have said, maybe try to find one?

Also - I work in mental health and get so annoyed with the attitude of some people who tell others to "rely on God" rather than get actual medical treatment for their mental health conditions.

Would they avoid the orthopaedic surgeon if they broke their hip? No they would not!

Have you heard of the Mind and Soul foundation? Set up by Christian psychiatrist and has lots of good info that is not anti science:

https://www.mindandsoulfoundation.org/

I urge you to look at Christs teachings and why Christian's hold the views that are opposite to yours. Go back to the Word of God.

Or you could go back to the Bible, try to figure out what actually are (perhaps) Christ's teachings, which were added by Paul etc, which were added later as the various versions and interpretations of texts developed in line with the prevailing orthodoxies.

"Christians who don't believe the exact same things as me can't be real Christians." 🙄

OP I found this article which I think you’d find interesting, there is a link in it to a website where you can find out a church’s stance on LGBTQ stuff.

https://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2022/30-september/news/uk/be-honest-about-stance-on-sexuality-student-christian-movement-tells-churches

Also I forgot to suggest Vineyard churches earlier which night also be a good fit re: the women thing but I’m not totally sure about their LGBTQ stance!

Yeah you don't get to speak for God.

OP clearly wouldn't be happy in a homophobic church. I don't know why anyone would be.

@Sweetladyjane

I was raised a Christian and went to a C of E school, and my parents were Christians. Went to Sunday School, and prayed every night, and went to Church several times a month, with my parents, aunts and uncles, and several neighbours. (This was 1970s and early 1980s.)

As I got a bit older - and my parents did too - I didn't go so much, and neither did my parents and extended family. Left home at 20-ish, and stopped going for 6 to 8 years - too busy travelling, partying, clubbing, and with my career...

Then in my 30s I started going again at a Church in the area I moved to with DH. Then left that area and started going in the new area. Then the same again when I moved to the area I am in now (and have been in for 11-12 years.)

I have always had a relationship with God - and Jesus - but have struggled sometimes because of the homophobia many people have in the church, and how some of them are very spiteful and catty about other people in the area who don't go to Church. Like single unmarried mums with kids with different men, and teenage mums, and other people. They are Christians, and some are very nice and kind. But some are definitely not. And as I said, VERY homophobic. Having knows a number of gay men and lesbians - (one gay man since we were both 15 in the early 1980s,) I cannot get on board with the gay hate. I have many lovely gay and lesbian friends.

Combined with the fact that when you start going to Church, they try and get you involved in everything, like doing the flowers, making the coffees and teas, cleaning the Church, and going on all kinds of courses to learn to speak in the Church, plus Alpha Course, Mindfulness Course, and lots more, it puts me off going. It's like you can't just go to Church once a week, you just HAVE to give all your free time.

Also, during the first Covid lockdown, the Church was closed for 6 months (during March to September 2020.) The Church was closed, and not one person from there contacted me to see if I was OK. And yes I did contact them - Different people, 5 or 6 phone calls I made. No-one got in touch with me though. Not a single phone call or message.

After me getting in touch 5 or 6 times over 4 weeks, I waited for someone else from the Church to contact me. No-one did. For the rest of the time they were closed. (5 months.) They were supposed to be caring Christians - and care for people in the community etc, especially their own 'flock.' Yet no-one contacted me. (I am a 'senior,' and also have a chronic health condition.) Yet no-one checked in on me.

So since then - for the last 3 years basically, I have reined in how often I go. I have gone less and less and less. In fact quite a few people have. Last 'family service' I went to in July had 7 adults and 4 children there. (Plus the vicar and one little helper.) Used to be 60 or so people. (30-35 adults, and around 25 children.) So lots of people have stopped. Maybe for the same or similar reasons to me. I don't know.

But I have heard quite a number of people say (in real life and online,) that they got fed up with their Church expecting them to give all their free time to take part in Church things. Bible studies, Alpha Course, Mums and toddlers groups, Ladies groups, Let's talk about Jesus group, and going on various trips that involve Jesus-y stuff! And not liking it if you didn't want to join in with everything. They don't seem to be fond of people who just want to go weekly (or 2 or 3 times a month,) and seem to insist that people give all or nothing. I think that's why they couldn't be fucked with me during lockdown, because I turned down most of the things they wanted me to do, and go on.

One woman said 'if everyone decided to not get more involved, there would be no activities, and no Church.' I said 'well if it's get involved 100% and do everything we tell you to/ask you to, or don't bother coming, then I will step back, because I don't have the time or energy to give more than I do already.'

tl;dr I also think it's very cult-ish, and yes, too homophobic. I have been 4 times this year. Last time July. Whilst I am still a Christian, and I still pray, and I still follow Jesus, I don't miss going to Church - or anyone there to be honest. From now on I will just go at Remembrance Sunday, Christmas, and Easter.

Also, I can't go to another Church. Mine is the only one for 11-12 miles. (I live out in the sticks.) I'm not doing a 23 mile round trip to Church. Only to discover they're the same as the one in my village!

@theduchessofspork and @crimsonfleet

You’re absolutely correct in that Jesus was inclusive of all members of society that were considered outcasts at that time. We are called as Christians to act in this way.

When a Christian makes a stance against LGBTQ+ lifestyles and openly discourages active homosexual relationships it does not automatically mean they are homophobic. It also does not mean that they don’t accept that many people struggle with their sexuality.

I have homosexual friends. I love them and treat them as equals, I do not hate them nor am an afraid of them. Jesus calls us to love our neighbour as our self.

In saying that, I can still believe that men partaking in sexual relationships with men and likewise women with women is scripturally wrong and this is what is very clear in the teachings of Christ and the apostolic writings in the New Testament.

Regarding sex, Jesus talks openly about it in Matthew 19 being reserved for marriage. 1st Corinthians 7 also details sex within marriage. It is mentioned many times throughout the New Testament.

@smilesup

Mental health illnesses are serious and I don’t believe that stopping or discouraging medication is sound or biblical advice.

OP I’m sorry you’ve had poor advice from churches about not taking medication that helps your bipolar disorder.

When a Christian makes a stance against LGBTQ+ lifestyles and openly discourages active homosexual relationships it does not automatically mean they are homophobic.

Yeah it kinda does.

Doesn't matter though since OP isn't interested in those kind of horrible teachings.

@ganondoof you can believe that if you want.

By definition it is the irrational fear, hatred, aversion and discrimination of homosexuals. I've already explained that is not the stance that many Christians including myself hold.

The definition I've seen says homosexuals or homosexuality. Although it could be argued that if you're telling gay people that their Internet sexuality is wrong and they have to be celibate or marry someone they don't love then the former also applies.

Not relevant to the OP though. There are an increasing number of Churches out there who don't believe that and hopefully she'll find one, despite your preaching and scolding.

You're using a narrow and partial definition

dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/homophobia

The second one is what applies to the sort of institutional homophobia in question.

In my old church we referred to the bible every week. And let's be honest there are plenty of interpretations of the bible and many translations etc etc. There are many Christians who believe the bible (the word of God, translated by men, filtered by men, sections dismissed by men who are inherently flawed).

There has to be an element of judgement when reading the bible and an element of accepting that it can be dangerous when taken verbatim.

For me what it boils down to is this: I'm called to love my neighbour as myself, I'm called to accept and love like a child unquestioning and unjudging. If my 'love' makes my lgbt neighbour feel like they are less than or like life isn't worth living, then I'm guessing they don't feel very loved. In which case I'm doing it wrong. When someone loves you, you feel loved. It's not my job to judge whether they or their life or their sexuality is right or wrong, it's my job to love them like it doesn't matter. For me it's very, very simple, the rest is between them and God to agree on what they feel is right. Doesn't mean I don't know the bible inside and out.

And everything I know of Jesus is that he's the most Liberal Liberal.

"When a Christian makes a stance against LGBTQ+ lifestyles and openly discourages active homosexual relationships it does not automatically mean they are homophobic. It also does not mean that they don’t accept that many people struggle with their sexuality."

It absolutely does mean they are homophobic. It means you are not accepting of their right to the basic human need (for the majority of people) for a loving and healthy relationship.

"I have homosexual friends. I love them and treat them as equals"

Unless they are being themselves. Unless they want to get married and have a family just like you can? Unless they want to have a home with a husband/ wife just like you can? You're not treating them like equals if you only accept them if they're living in a way YOU approve of which means not being able to do a lot of the things you are able to do in an authentic way.

There has been unbelievable damage done by 'the church' (organised religion) to members of the lgbtqa+ community over many, many years and its so ingrained that the damage is continuing now without people ever taking any accountability and really thinking back to the roots of where that might stem from.

Excellent posts by @Fink and @Howtohandl

One of the big issues that underlies the debates about inclusion of women in leadership of the church and how LGBTQ people are treated is how the Bible is interpreted. For the ongoing debate over same sex marriage the C of E produced a very large book and accompanying materials called Living in Love and Faith. There is a chapter in this book on the Bible which looks at the different passages that are used against LGBTQ people. It looks at how they can be interpreted in different ways and then goes on to outline seven ways in which the Bible can be interpreted. There are likely more than seven but it gives you the spectrum from, inerrant and able to be read plainly, to glimpses of truth in a book written by fallible human beings.

www.churchofengland.org/resources/living-love-and-faith/living-love-and-faith-book

It sounds like the OP has been to churches who are on the 'without error and read plainly' end of the spectrum. The phrase 'bible believing' does make me twitch. There is nothing in the creeds about the Bible. As Christians we believe in Jesus Christ the only son of God and not a book.

If a church says it is 'Bible believing' it is making a stand on how it interprets scripture. It is not the only way. At my theological college one of the tutors upset the more conservative students by setting them the task of using the Bible to prove that owning slaves was OK. It was deeply uncomfortable. You can do it and Christians did it for centuries.

One of the most important things we can do when approaching scripture is have a sense of our own cultural bias and a humility that we might be wrong. Most conservative interpretations of the Bible are by men with power who are reading a text written in a patriarchal era. Of course it looks simple.

There have always been debates about what the Bible says. As Christians we have wrangled over, slavery, usury, purgatory, prayers for the dead, church governance, hell, votes for women, women as priests and bishops, divorce, war, abortion, end of life care and many others.

That turned into a bit of an essay. Sorry. I hope the OP can find a church that nurtures her in her faith.

The opening poster asked for a Christian perspective. I say gently, it always makes me smile when there's a pile-on with non-Christian views.

God says 'do not murder' - doesn't stop murder
God says 'do not steal' - doesn't stop theft
God says 'do not tell lies' - doesn't stop liars
God says 'this is my way ...' - doesn't stop folk ignoring God and going their own way.

The shed blood of Christ Jesus gave us all freedom to live our lives in the knowledge that when/if we turn to Him, we can be forgiven for going our own way. We ALL fall short of God's perfect plan for our lives. Every. Single. One of us.

People do so want to major on their idea of sex as a sin, more than anything else. It creates the longest most heated debates. Maybe because sex is such a strong driver? Outside of God's perfect model for a Christian's sexual life (one man with one woman for life); if a Christian has ever lusted after another person, has ever watched porn and acted upon it, has ever two-timed, had sex outside of marriage, practised bestiality, practised homosexuality, (discrete from being homosexual), slept around, ... then I return to the previous paragraph. That is love.

If you're not a Christian, then fill yer boots and stop being concerned about whatever anyone else may think. If you're a Christian and struggling, then you will know what the answer is - turn to God in prayer, find a trusted Christian mentor and seek peace.

And now we have the comparison of homosexuality to beastiality. Well done.