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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

How do you cope with lack of spirituality around you

223 replies

FallingStar21 · 27/07/2023 17:20

I am a spiritual person, not religious per se, but my beliefs are quite close to the Buddhist teachings. I also respect and believe there's truth and wisdom in every religion.
My "issue" is that I struggle with the lack of spirituality around me. I mean mostly at work or random every day places where you need to talk to people etc
I never start a conversation of that sort (in fact I shy away from disclosing anything about my personal faith). But as people love to discuss all kinds of things and share their opinions, I have realised that the majority are very much in the material so their interests and priorities are very different. They can often be very sceptical, if not dismissive, of anything that's not part of it and that's another reason I don't say much on such topics.
Of course everyone has a right to believe or not believe whatever they like, but ithe lack of spiritual awareness and mindfulness is really bringing me down. Anyone else feels that way?

OP posts:
OMG12 · 01/02/2024 13:04

CurlewKate · 01/02/2024 12:39

What do people who feel that there isn't enough spirituality around them want?

I’m waiting on A universal reformation of the whole wide world.

Sorciere1 · 01/02/2024 16:18

Buddhism is most definitely a religion, the Western version gutted it like it has done with Yoga to fit the current materialist zeitgeist. I know all about it having received an ordination in a small ancient Japanese sect. It has a ton of animist Shinto and esoteric ( magical) practices.

I remember very well growing up in the 1970s very Dionysiac + the sheer infusion of spirituality from the 60s. Everyone was interested. I want that back.

And yes you do ascend to higher levels on the spiritual path, that's the point, making the effort. If others regard this as 'privileged' ( an overused cliche) who cares. Go tend your own garden.

OMG12 · 01/02/2024 19:37

I always find it interesting when people equate spirituality to being all soft warm and fuzzy.

Many spiritual paths are fucking hard core. Many require a strong sense of self. One should be hard when needed soft when needed and it’s a constant flow and balance between the two.

if you go down the path of using grimoires it’s no good asking a demon if they want a cuddle.

New age fluff has nothing to do with most spiritual traditions. Western traditions are not about the dissolution of the ego.

ye are gods and gods aren’t shrinking violets in knitting circles.

OMG12 · 01/02/2024 19:45

Sorciere1 · 01/02/2024 16:18

Buddhism is most definitely a religion, the Western version gutted it like it has done with Yoga to fit the current materialist zeitgeist. I know all about it having received an ordination in a small ancient Japanese sect. It has a ton of animist Shinto and esoteric ( magical) practices.

I remember very well growing up in the 1970s very Dionysiac + the sheer infusion of spirituality from the 60s. Everyone was interested. I want that back.

And yes you do ascend to higher levels on the spiritual path, that's the point, making the effort. If others regard this as 'privileged' ( an overused cliche) who cares. Go tend your own garden.

Most of Eastern spirituality in the west is little more than a commodity - whose fault this is is open to debate.

Some responsibility has to lie with the Indian gurus happy to sell the tradition, Blavatsky and Crowley carry some responsibility. Tbh is a bit of a shit show of chakras, crystals sound baths and the middle class gym membership buying Buddhist statues in garden centres.

Personally I don’t think eastern spirituality (in its proper form) is well placed in the west, we have our own esoteric traditions which are much better suited to a western culture - might be an unpopular opinion but it bears out in the amount of people who transfer across having met a brick wall when they get so far in studying Eastern philosophy,

Flobbyblob · 01/02/2024 19:48

nihilism is alive and well. Since ‘progressive’ post modernists decided that all religion (spirituality) was bad and that liberalism was good, and since all the institutions in the West have been deconstructed as ‘power constructs; and since religions are also deemed as evil ‘power constructs’, spirituality is out of fashion.

instead it has been replaced with rampant consumerism and short term hedonism. Both of which are destructive and unsustainable.

such is the modern world.

Sorciere1 · 01/02/2024 22:45

It's there in the West if you want to make the effort and that's part of the journey; putting in the hard work to find a real Buddhist sect that teaches authentic not-watered down teachings and techniques.
I spent a lot of time studying , undergoing ascetic practices to progress spiritually. It's not for the weak.

I agree that post-modernism is a nihilist dead end; they are the heirs of the 19th century bomb-throwing Russian anarchists who were usually middle and upper class.

I ignore it and happily live in my spiritual subculture.

OMG12 · 02/02/2024 06:15

Sorciere1 · 01/02/2024 22:45

It's there in the West if you want to make the effort and that's part of the journey; putting in the hard work to find a real Buddhist sect that teaches authentic not-watered down teachings and techniques.
I spent a lot of time studying , undergoing ascetic practices to progress spiritually. It's not for the weak.

I agree that post-modernism is a nihilist dead end; they are the heirs of the 19th century bomb-throwing Russian anarchists who were usually middle and upper class.

I ignore it and happily live in my spiritual subculture.

Yes, I know quite a few people who started off down the eastern path (the authentic ones - not yoga in a church hall stuff) with the exception of two they all hit brick walls regarding either culture and/or language. It’s not that some people can’t surmount these, one of my friends -who follows a traditional (not new age) tantric path seems to have achieved this, but most I know have transferred over to a western esoteric path with more familiar symbolism etc. How have you dealt with such issues.

it’s interesting what Dion Dortune had to say on the matter - but it doesn’t really fit in with modern thought so often gets rejected.

But most spiritual paths I know require hours of study, sacrifice, gruelling rituals and testing initiations., often, esp at the beginning they can’t heavily disrupt peoples lives to get them on the right path.

So not for the weak , uncommitted or faint hearted.

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 07:23

But most spiritual paths I know require hours of study, sacrifice, gruelling rituals and testing initiations., often, esp at the beginning they can’t heavily disrupt peoples lives to get them on the right path.

@OMG12, hmm I have been thinking about this. I am Christian and was wondering how you view Grace, God's power manifesting in people and through people.

I do study and there is sacrifice.. there's ritual and initiation there for people too. However, it doesn't really feel 'gruelling' in the way I think you are describing.

To use a running analogy, when the technique clicks it just feels freeing and invigorating. You might get tired after a long run and your muscles might ache a bit occasionally but you are eager to go out again the next day. Well that's how I feel. Incidentally with running I just watched one technique clip and after years of thinking I couldn't run very well, running wasn't for me, I ran for half an hour without too much effort at all.

OMG12 · 02/02/2024 08:04

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 07:23

But most spiritual paths I know require hours of study, sacrifice, gruelling rituals and testing initiations., often, esp at the beginning they can’t heavily disrupt peoples lives to get them on the right path.

@OMG12, hmm I have been thinking about this. I am Christian and was wondering how you view Grace, God's power manifesting in people and through people.

I do study and there is sacrifice.. there's ritual and initiation there for people too. However, it doesn't really feel 'gruelling' in the way I think you are describing.

To use a running analogy, when the technique clicks it just feels freeing and invigorating. You might get tired after a long run and your muscles might ache a bit occasionally but you are eager to go out again the next day. Well that's how I feel. Incidentally with running I just watched one technique clip and after years of thinking I couldn't run very well, running wasn't for me, I ran for half an hour without too much effort at all.

Well in terms of ritual they certainly can be gruelling -many can last hours and often have at least a 12,hour prep of fasting/bathing etc.

The Abremelin operation takes 18 months.

So often it is gruelling.

The study is long and often complicated. Sometimes it can feel gruelling.

At first the consequences can take their toll.

Yes things get easier easier, but there’s always effort required to advance.

Re Gods Grace. Well I believe that we are all god - but it takes a lot of effort. Learning to accept and use our own divinity is a tough path and a dangerous one to boot.

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 08:06

Piece of scripture that I feel is pertinent regarding what I just posted.

"29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:29-30)

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 08:10

@OMG12,

Re Gods Grace. Well I believe that we are all god - but it takes a lot of effort. Learning to accept and use our own divinity is a tough path and a dangerous one to boot.

Note my capitalisation. I am not talking about a 'god', I am talking about the Grace of God. (Do you call God The Source, or The One? Or do you not have a concept of God Almighty, The Creator?)

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 08:13

Because the danger is with feeling enlightened/transformed after achieving a way through gruelling ritual and study etc is that it all just becomes too transactional. Food for the ego. You've earnt it.

Tinybrother · 02/02/2024 08:53

I can’t imagine being so arrogant as to think that people have to demonstrate their spirituality to me

Tinybrother · 02/02/2024 08:54

Also not sure why spirituality requires “gruelling” activities necessarily.

Tinybrother · 02/02/2024 08:56

And the “I’m too special for small talk” stuff

no one finds it interesting. It’s just one route (and there are others) to the more interesting stuff. No wonder everyone is tedious to you if you dismiss them on the basis of small talk

Lamelie · 02/02/2024 09:07

Drews · 27/07/2023 18:00

Start accepting it. It's one of the primary teachings of Buddhism.

This. Also if you’re buddhistish do you do the
loving kindness meditation? I’m not Buddhist but this is a lovely practice and specifically opens your heart to people you don’t like or aren’t close to.
https://www.mindful.org/this-loving-kindness-meditation-is-a-radical-act-of-love/

Another obvious solution is to find some like minded friends. I work with fellow Christians, hanging out with a priest tomorrow, will go to church Sunday. Join a meditation group or social action.

This Loving-Kindness Meditation is a Radical Act of Love

Jon Kabat-Zinn leads us in a heartscape meditation for deep healing of ourselves and others.

https://www.mindful.org/this-loving-kindness-meditation-is-a-radical-act-of-love/

OMG12 · 02/02/2024 09:31

Tinybrother · 02/02/2024 08:54

Also not sure why spirituality requires “gruelling” activities necessarily.

Well your path is your path I guess! Some people follow paths that are more testing than others.

it’s just what you find interesting re talking. Some people like to talk about certain things and not others. I would be extraordinarily bored if someone spoke about football all the time, others would love it. If I didn’t want to engage in that conversation would I be arrogant?

Some people are fine discussing love island. They get things out of it that they want that I don’t need in my life. Sometimes I will partake in the game if it’s useful especially for others, eg someone feels lonely, otherwise it’s a waste of time. The reasons behind the small talk, gelling with others, finding out about their views on unimportant (to me) matters, ingratiating yourself to others to be part of their tribe, to get a promotion or something else etc are normally done for very selfish reasons, there’s usually very little giving, it’s generally all take for people using that method of social interaction. Where I choose to engage in small talk it would generally be where there is a need, as I say, usually to help others. It’s not arrogant to just not need something that others think they do.

Why do you think not taking part in the game and playing by the rules is arrogant? Is it a fear this makes people unpredictable? People don’t like people who act outside what is expected, hence the need to pin ostracising labels on them like anti social, rude, arrogant, eccentric, mad, heretic, witch. It’s an attempt to control people and bring them back to predictable social interaction. It’s why they burned largely women as witches, they acted, usually literally, on the fringe of society. No doubt people (men) thought these women were arrogant if they didn’t get married, knew how to read, didn’t behave like they expected women to behave. Your “arrogant” comments are no different. So why are you sad I as angry about women not behaving as they should?

Most spiritual paths take you out of just the mundane. The game playing of society.

OMG12 · 02/02/2024 09:35

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 08:10

@OMG12,

Re Gods Grace. Well I believe that we are all god - but it takes a lot of effort. Learning to accept and use our own divinity is a tough path and a dangerous one to boot.

Note my capitalisation. I am not talking about a 'god', I am talking about the Grace of God. (Do you call God The Source, or The One? Or do you not have a concept of God Almighty, The Creator?)

Ah -sorry just noticed my user name is my old one. Well yes I would cam it The Source/The All etc. The divine.

But yes noted re capitalisation. I would say that God Grace is not really a thing as separate from how we treat ourselves. so in that context it would be gods grace.

OMG12 · 02/02/2024 09:37

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 08:13

Because the danger is with feeling enlightened/transformed after achieving a way through gruelling ritual and study etc is that it all just becomes too transactional. Food for the ego. You've earnt it.

And what’s the problem with that?

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 10:19

And what’s the problem with that?

@OMG12, there's no Grace (which is freely given) in it! It doesn't equate to love which is freely given and not bought. It is unsettling as every gain requires a payment. And you need sometime to sell which means certain people are more advantaged, like in a Capitalist system, some have more time, intellectual ability, money, etc

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 10:19

Something not sometime

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 10:26

@OMG12
And I believe in faith God's Grace is far more powerful than how I treat myself what you describe as 'god's grace'. So hence the 'ease of passage' with it..like the running.🙂

OMG12 · 02/02/2024 10:32

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 10:19

And what’s the problem with that?

@OMG12, there's no Grace (which is freely given) in it! It doesn't equate to love which is freely given and not bought. It is unsettling as every gain requires a payment. And you need sometime to sell which means certain people are more advantaged, like in a Capitalist system, some have more time, intellectual ability, money, etc

But surely Gods Grace isn’t freely given is it?

why wasn’t it given to Adam and Eve?
why wasn’t it given to Lucifer
why did he ask Abraham to sacrifice his son?
why did he kill first born Egyptian children?
why did he murder his own son if he could just impart grace freely, this seemed fairly much dependent on the sacrifice and accompanying rituals Jesus undertook
why do people go to church?
why do people read the Bible?
why does there need to be sacrements
why do you have to believe certain things?
why do people shape their lives in certain ways?
etc etc - surely that’s doing something in exchange for something else? Gods grace depends on thoughts and actions. Otherwise what’s the point?

CurlewKate · 02/02/2024 10:41

I am always a little wary when people use the expression "mundane" to describe fellow humans.

heyhohello · 02/02/2024 10:54

@OMG12, if you are talking about sacrifice it needs to be freely given. With love. And when Christ came (Who comes) amongst us, who Christians see as God, we see it is God who sacrificed(s) Himself and then He rose (rises) again. It is written:

Hosea 6:6
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Matthew 12:7
If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the innocent.