Atheists -what makes you so sure?

[OMG12]

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

The source could be divine, everything is possible, but I am very sure that is a much less likely explanation than the random chance, evolution etc.

I also think if humans had never existed/evolved then it's likely some other form of life would have. We had dinosaurs for example that died out and then other forms of life persisted, eventually leading to humans.

Not seen one shred of evidence that there is a God, so no chance am I going to bother praying or any of that shite.

If after I leave this earth it turns out there is a God, then all you do is apologise and he/she will let you up the stairs rather than down the slide.

Religions are based on control.

God is an invention of man designed to control man.

I also believe that when you are dead there is nothing. Like there was before you were born.

I'm not sure there are no such things as deities, because of course there is a vast amount we don't know and cannot know about existence.

However, it seems highly unlikely, being just one of infinite possibilities among the vast unknown. There's no reason to believe in a deity other than reasons easily explained psychologically.

Also, I personally don't find that faith in a monotheistic god would give me the meaning or sense of contentment many say it provides. The idea of god for me begs the question: and what? We're still left with an infinite and meaningless universe.

Do Gods have to be omnipotent to the finest detail. Where do you stand on Deism?

Whst if the concept of good and evil only exist in the mind of man and god contains everything all at once. It’s man than separates it out and judges

I can really recommend this if you haven't read it already- https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spinozas-Religion-New-Reading-Ethics/dp/0691224196/ref=sr_1_5?crid=32H8GGI5LZ4XJ&keywords=spinoza&qid=1686779640&refinements=p_n_publication_date%3A182241031&rnid=182240031&s=books&sprefix=spinoza%2Caps%2C99&sr=1-5 - it's what your posts on here make me think of more than anything.

It just doesn't make any logical sense, whereas science has logically explained things much better and without really any gaps that need filling.

Meanwhile, there are lots of very obvious reasons to explain how people ended up making it up.

I totally agree that human existence and human consciousness are random chance. The Earth has already been through half a dozen extinction cycles much more catastrophic than the destruction of the dinosaurs. Sooner or later, the same will happen to humans, and maybe there will never again be any entities in the universe that wonder where it comes from. We know time as we perceive it isn’t real, so maybe conceptualising our existence through time is also illusory?

But I thought God didn’t play dice?

I do find time fascinating, especially the thought of time being linear.

maybe our who existence is an illusion

Please, like you care what atheists think.

god contains everything all at once.

If you define god like that, you’re saying that god = everything so, if something exists, that is proof of god. Which is very different from a conscious, intentional creator of any sort.

So all you are really certain of is that something exists. You’re choosing to define that something itself as god. You’re not fundamentally disagreeing with atheists, because everyone agrees that the universe exists. You’re just labelling as god what a physicist might call spacetime.

Ah great thanks, I’ve just ordered it as it looks really interesting.

it’s probably a bit basic for yourself, but as you mentioned Spinoza if anyone is looking for a good introduction to Spinozas God I’d recommend

I am as sure as I can be that there is no god because it seems logical that if there was there should have been some evidence by now. But as you can't prove a negative, I accept the microscopic possibility that evidence might turn up tomorrow. Pretty sure it won't, though.

Most of science at that level seems an educated guess rather than logic

erm it’s a little more than that. As Brian Cox do succinctly put it, it’s impossible to dispute the Big Bang “because we can fucking see it!”

Surely it’s up to believers to “prove” God exists, rather than atheists to prove a negative? I could say “I believe there are 16 foot tall pink unicorns”. Surely it’s up to me to prove they exist rather than you to prove they don’t.

also, I believe religion - and the threat of damnation in Christianity - was made up to keep poor people, and women in particular, in their place.

My dad became an atheist after his brother was killed in WW2. He had been brought up in a devoutly Christian family, but he said that if there was a God he wouldn't have allowed there to be a war & wouldn't have taken his brother, who he worshipped. I think that things like the Ten Commandments were brought in to give people a standard to live to. I can remember going to my great uncle's Catholic funeral & throughout the funeral, the priest called him a sinner, there was nobody less sinful than him, he was a good man, he protected my nan from their abusive father, he was a good husband & father, a hardworking man.

It’s an interesting perspective. It’s not my interpretation of god. But a fairly common one especially amongst the mystery traditions and “ Neoplatonism” etc. in fact, deep down it’s probably one of the more common understandings of God. iMaybe science has been proving the existence of the divine all along just with different language. Maybe scientific atheists are closer to understanding god that some religions.

@Nat6999 similar story. My dad became and atheist (and turned his back on Catholicism) when he saw for himself the terrible slum housing his best friend was living in when he was 14. He couldn’t believe a loving God would treat his flock like that. Socialism became his “religion” after that.

"You see this is where I always get to, science has huge missing gaps that just seem to be ignored (not by actual scientists- but by those who just believe science has all the answers)"

But I don't think anyone ever says that science has all the answers. Scientifically minded atheists are perfectly comfortable with not knowing stuff- they are happy with as yet infilled gaps. It's theists who worry about the gaps and put God in them.

but by those who just believe science has all the answers

Obviously we don’t need to know those answers for them to exist.

Electricity existed for millennia before we identified it, worked out what it is, how it works etc.

If some for of higher power is found to exist, it will still have a scientific explanation. How it came to be, how it works.
But we had something to investigate wrt to electricity, or bacteria, or nuclear fusion etc. We haven’t got any firm of starting point with god, not outside our own heads.

So how do you 100% know the divine isn’t one of those missing answers

@OMG12 "
So how do you 100% know the divine isn’t one of those missing answers"

I don't.

But will a divinity have a scientific explanation? How are you defining a “scientific explanation”?

I think you’re right about actual scientists because one of the things science teaches you is to be comfortable with, and to ‘hold’, in the psychological sense, uncertainty. But a number of PPs on this thread seemed to be using ‘science’ in the same way that theists use god - suggesting that science has/will have all the answers to existential questions. Which is pretty unlikely, not least because- as you say - they’re not even trying to answer them!

So you’re agnostic rather than an atheist?

Religion is used as a tool to control people, especially women.
No evidence of there being a god.
It feels illogical to believe in a higher 'being'.