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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Atheists -what makes you so sure?

585 replies

OMG12 · 14/06/2023 19:12

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

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OMG12 · 18/06/2023 20:50

multivac · 18/06/2023 20:29

People equate a belief in god as Abrahamic faiths which is not looking at the full picture, it’s like viewing the universe through a key hole.

I haven't mentioned any particular faith, though. Just a common sense that 'this isn't all there is'. I'm very carefully separating 'faith' and 'religion', too - I find the latter highly problematic, and the former entirely natural, even though it's not my experience.

That said, the idea that we, as individual humans, can view 'the universe' through anything but a narrow and subjective lens is not something I can subscribe to. A bit arrogant, maybe, to 'just know'?

It was more the thoughts about the afterlife it appeared very in line with abrahamic faiths, many other faiths don’t have the idea that injustices in this life will be made ok in the next,

why arrogant? I wouldn’t say the ability to just know is tied to an individual, it’s accessible to all if you subscribe to something like the collective unconscious.

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multivac · 18/06/2023 20:58

it’s

'It' being an absolute truth, meaning that any other belief system is, at best, incomplete.

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 21:08

But I’m not sure there is a universal ultimate truth, everyone will probably have a different perspective- I thought I’d made that pretty clear through the thread that’s what I thought

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multivac · 18/06/2023 21:09

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 21:08

But I’m not sure there is a universal ultimate truth, everyone will probably have a different perspective- I thought I’d made that pretty clear through the thread that’s what I thought

What is it, then, that you 'just know', do you think?

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 21:13

I think I’ve explained that many times upthread

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multivac · 18/06/2023 21:20

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 21:13

I think I’ve explained that many times upthread

I'd appreciate a repetition, in that case, if you wouldn't mind? I got the bit where you just knew... but if 'it' isn't the truth - something that atheists are failing to grasp - then I'm not sure I'm getting what 'it' is, from your perspective.

monsteramunch · 18/06/2023 21:24

Yeah I'm stuck on the same point as @multivac as I don't think you have answered that either OP?

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 21:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 21:49

monsteramunch · 18/06/2023 21:24

Yeah I'm stuck on the same point as @multivac as I don't think you have answered that either OP?

See my answer to Multivac

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monsteramunch · 18/06/2023 21:52

I don’t see why I need to repeat something I have already written, I’m not here to compensate for your laziness.

Goodness this is an overly prickly response OP.

Upthread you repeated the same question(s) lots of times to people and they shared thoughtful and patient answers, even when they felt they had already explained, in an effort to try to have a meaningful discourse on this.

The tone shift from you when the same happens in reverse has been a bit unpleasant so I think I'll bow out but it's a shame as there were some interesting exchanges on here.

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:05

monsteramunch · 18/06/2023 21:52

I don’t see why I need to repeat something I have already written, I’m not here to compensate for your laziness.

Goodness this is an overly prickly response OP.

Upthread you repeated the same question(s) lots of times to people and they shared thoughtful and patient answers, even when they felt they had already explained, in an effort to try to have a meaningful discourse on this.

The tone shift from you when the same happens in reverse has been a bit unpleasant so I think I'll bow out but it's a shame as there were some interesting exchanges on here.

Actually, I don’t think I was the one who changed the tone, I was polite to people when asking for clarification, you, on the other hand….

The difference being I was asking for clarification on one maybe two posts, you have bern asking for a summary on 16 pages. I was specific about clarification, you just want me to repeat myself.

im sorry if you find my refusal to summarise 16 pages for you prickly- I have specifically said I’d be happy to answer any specific points. But I’m not going to waste my time writing a summary of information available, you specifically asked me to repeat not clarify (the latter I said I would me more than happy to do). I guess though you’re happy to find an exit route from the debate.

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monsteramunch · 18/06/2023 22:08

I'm not really sure what's happened here to be honest @OMG12 as the tone is suddenly so different. Genuinely perplexed by it and perhaps something has been lost in translation. Best of luck with everything and thanks for the earlier chats which were really interesting.

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:10

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:05

Actually, I don’t think I was the one who changed the tone, I was polite to people when asking for clarification, you, on the other hand….

The difference being I was asking for clarification on one maybe two posts, you have bern asking for a summary on 16 pages. I was specific about clarification, you just want me to repeat myself.

im sorry if you find my refusal to summarise 16 pages for you prickly- I have specifically said I’d be happy to answer any specific points. But I’m not going to waste my time writing a summary of information available, you specifically asked me to repeat not clarify (the latter I said I would me more than happy to do). I guess though you’re happy to find an exit route from the debate.

Apologies @monsteramunch i confused you with the other poster but you were also asking me to repeat so treat my response and then quoted my response to Multivac hence the confusion. But I’m not sure what point you want me to clarify

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OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:12

monsteramunch · 18/06/2023 22:08

I'm not really sure what's happened here to be honest @OMG12 as the tone is suddenly so different. Genuinely perplexed by it and perhaps something has been lost in translation. Best of luck with everything and thanks for the earlier chats which were really interesting.

Sorry cross post it was interesting until Multivac joined. I was extremely annoyed by her/him just wanting me to repeat myself due to their laziness

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multivac · 18/06/2023 22:14

Ok then, just one point of clarification: you say 'I’m not sure there is a universal ultimate truth' - and that everyone needs to find their own path, is that right? But as a perennialist, do you not believe that ultimately, all those paths lead to - or from - a single truth? And it is that, which you call ' divinity'?

So, do you feel you have, or need to have, a relationship with that divinity?

And if not... what does it bring to your life to know of it?

multivac · 18/06/2023 22:15

Sorry cross post it was interesting until Multivac joined. I was extremely annoyed by her/him just wanting me to repeat myself due to their laziness

This was rude the first time you did it, btw.

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:20

multivac · 18/06/2023 22:15

Sorry cross post it was interesting until Multivac joined. I was extremely annoyed by her/him just wanting me to repeat myself due to their laziness

This was rude the first time you did it, btw.

sorry you find stating the obvious rude, what excuse do you have other than laziness asking me to summarise 16 pages of comments? I explained I was more than happy to clarify any specific points. Assuming you have read through the whole thread, are there any points you want clarifying
againI’m more than happy to do so, as I have been doing very patiently with you,

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multivac · 18/06/2023 22:24

Assuming you have read through the whole thread, are there any points you want clarifying

You mean, other than the one I've just asked about? Under the post you just replied to?

OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:29

multivac · 18/06/2023 22:14

Ok then, just one point of clarification: you say 'I’m not sure there is a universal ultimate truth' - and that everyone needs to find their own path, is that right? But as a perennialist, do you not believe that ultimately, all those paths lead to - or from - a single truth? And it is that, which you call ' divinity'?

So, do you feel you have, or need to have, a relationship with that divinity?

And if not... what does it bring to your life to know of it?

I believe that there is a truth for me, I believe that everyone will have their own truth, they are all different perspectives on the ultimate truth, the combination of all of them is the ultimate truth that I can only express through my perspective on it. Everyone’s own path(including atheism) is their view on the ultimate truth.

I have a relationship with the divinity through its emanations. Through my experience of the universe. What does it bring to me? I’m not sure it needs to “bring” anything to me, other than an framework to view the universe

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OMG12 · 18/06/2023 22:31

multivac · 18/06/2023 22:24

Assuming you have read through the whole thread, are there any points you want clarifying

You mean, other than the one I've just asked about? Under the post you just replied to?

I have answered this as I explained a while ago I’m having issues with things not posting correctly

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multivac · 18/06/2023 22:39

I have answered this as I explained a while ago I’m having issues with things not posting correctly

Maybe the divinity is emanating playfulness 😎

Thanks for the clarification, anyway. I suppose I was wondering how that framework might help you in your daily life. Or make your life any different from how it might be without it, even.

User93993993 · 18/06/2023 22:49

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe.*

So which god do you believe in? Which of the 5000 or so that are currently worshipped in the world is the right one? Will I go to hell if I pick the wrong one? Because I'd love to go to heaven (or equivalent), for having being a thoroughly good person despite not believing in one less god than the average believer.

GarlicGrace · 18/06/2023 22:50

As far as I understand @OMG12 's belief, it goes something like this: There is a universal spirit, which is expanded & fragmented throughout the universe much as matter & energy have been doing since the big bang. Similar to the way we are constantly showered with photons & neutrinos from outer space, we all move through a medium comprised of this spirit.

She's cited ideas related to emanationism, neoplatonism and Avicenna's philosophies, Kabbalah and, in one way or another, most major religions today. The universal spirit has an 'essence' that is pure & perfect (whatever that means), infinitely unchanging, and is possibly heading towards reunification of all its parts. It also has an 'existence', which is all the stuff that happens in the material world. This aspect, I think, is impartial. Things just happen, the spirit isn't bothered about details.

But she's also talked about a collective human conscious or subconscious, which would be the bit of universal spirit that's embedded in all of us. Most religions offer routes to enhance this in ourselves, eventually reaching a state of unity or reunion with the greater 'essence'.

I don't know whether animals, fungi, plants and protozoa are also supposed to be part of the spiritual collective. I don't know, either, how her comments about universal and earthly 'balance' fit into all of this. Maybe she'll correct me and/or explain more?

Myself, I think Plotinus, Avicenna &co were onto something with their intuitions about universal scale, continuity and 'emanations' but, lacking the ontological framework to interpret them as physical phenomena, explained them in terms of 'divinity'. Avicenna even had to invent ontology to get as far as he did!

I would've put links, but MN crashes whenever I try. The 'existence' is glitching 😏

OMG12 · 19/06/2023 04:42

multivac · 18/06/2023 22:39

I have answered this as I explained a while ago I’m having issues with things not posting correctly

Maybe the divinity is emanating playfulness 😎

Thanks for the clarification, anyway. I suppose I was wondering how that framework might help you in your daily life. Or make your life any different from how it might be without it, even.

”Maybe the divinity is emanating playfulness 😎”

I think we’re done!

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OMG12 · 19/06/2023 04:44

User93993993 · 18/06/2023 22:49

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe.*

So which god do you believe in? Which of the 5000 or so that are currently worshipped in the world is the right one? Will I go to hell if I pick the wrong one? Because I'd love to go to heaven (or equivalent), for having being a thoroughly good person despite not believing in one less god than the average believer.

I guess you’ll have to ask someone who believes in heaven and/or hell. I answered the Ricky Gervais quote a couple of pages back,

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