Atheists -what makes you so sure?

[OMG12]

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

I agree with you here. The statement “I do not believe in Gods” indicates that he presumption is that there are gods and would be a likely response in rejection to the idea. It indicates that there are two sides to this argument, it’s an unlikely statement if everyone agrees there are no gods

”I have no belief in gods” however could be said as a stand-alone statement by everyone. It doesn’t necessarily indicate an opposing view.

To “not” do something in the first example indicates a rejection of an action, in the second example it’s a positive statement of action and therefore doesn’t necessitate a coupled position like the first.

This is why they sound different

But prob I’m wondering off topic now.

I don't believe in fairies.
I believe there are no fairies.

Neither statement means I 'obviously' believe in
'something' re fairies.

'I don't believe in dragons.
I believe there are no dragons'

Neither statement means I 'obviously' believe in 'something' re dragons.

Why do you think the meaning of those sentences changes if we substitute the word fairies or dragons for god?

Of course it means you believe in something!

In the same way if you substitute 'dragons' for 'telling the truth', by saying to someone... 'I don't believe you're telling the truth or
I believe you are not telling the truth'
...the meaning is the same. You have a belief about their truth telling. You believe it is absent.

If you don't believe in dragons, you're saying they don't exist which is why you don't believe in them. And it's the same as saying you believe there are no dragons.

Judge: did he rob the bank?
Jury: 'we don't believe he robbed the bank' or 'we believe he did not rob the bank' is a far cry from 'we believe he robbed the bank' 'we do believe he robbed the bank'.

One is a belief he didn't rob the bank and one is a belief that he did. Both are a belief.

Because I believe in science, and I think religion was constructed to explain things that were not yet understood, and to form control over humans (within their social context).

However, I also understand the need for this structure and code of belief, rituals and morals is deeply engrained in some people, to the point that believing in spirituality offers them comfort. I have no issue with individual choices (unless religion is presented to my DC as absolute fact. That is not cool!)

I grew up immersed in a religious culture (RC) and religious household. I didn’t have a loss of faith or an epiphany. I didn’t lose faith because I quite simply didn’t have faith or belief and thought it was all a convoluted system to maintain class and control. The control of women and fertility is very prominent in Catholicism. Class is a feature too, affluent catholics didn't get as berated and belittled as the working class catholics.

I literally trained for and work in life and death and episode of physical and mental ill health and in that I see compassion,hope,despair but I don’t see the need for personal religiosity. Having worked in Covid throughout the pandemic I had to draw on personal reserve and belief in humanity. I do not believe in a god or a higher faith,it’s a construct that’s used for order and unfortunately control (predominantly women)

I think some people are drawn to a need for order and explanation and I hear then say I needed something or seeking purpose . I derive my purpose from work, family,being a parent,a colleague, part of my community. None of these activities for me have or need a religious overtone. You don’t need faith or belief in deities and idols to have a moral compass.

i don’t have absence in my life as an atheist, my kids are at a non-faith school although I accept they are exposed to it at school. It’s not reinforced at home. I don’t attend or participate in any religious events. I do attend faith weddings and I’m a gracious guest, eat the food, praise the hospitality, and don’t complain

I also believe in science, a belief in science does not exclude the possibility of a divinity though. I also think much of religion has developed in a way to control people )I think it has other purposes too). But again that doesn’t exclude the possibility of gods.

I agree that children should be left to make up their own minds so I would never tell my child that there is or is not a god. I cannot prove either position categorically. We discuss the possibilities and different beliefs. My child believes in a god (a different construct of divinity to mine) someone telling him there is not a god as a statement of fact is not cool. I agree.

Having gone to a convent school I agree with you about Catholicism - although certain elements are good. Like most religions.

I think you’re right in a way, but I think everyone seeks some kind of purpose, you have found that in family, work etc, they are enough to give you a sense of place and purpose, they give you sufficient comfort, of belonging you personally don’t need more, some people do.

I always find the following quote from Richard Dawkins inspirational

”After sleeping through a hundred million centuries we have finally opened our eyes on a sumptuous planet, sparkling with color, bountiful with life. Within decades we must close our eyes again. Isn’t it a noble, an enlightened way of spending our brief time in the sun, to work at understanding the universe and how we have come to wake up in it? This is how I answer when I am asked—as I am surprisingly often—why I bother to get up in the mornings.” Richard Dawkins

In this way I see little difference between a scientist and someone who seeks spirituality- they are both driven to understand, they might just reach slightly different conclusions.

The vast majority of people don’t really have the time to ponder this stuff in any great detail though. With a full time job, 3 children (1 disabled) and other caring responsibilities, I rarely give it more than a passing thought. I don’t really have the headspace to do much more than get on with the life that I’m faced with.

I’m confident and relaxed regard my aetheism and I don’t impose it or explain to others
I have unfortunately had people try to explain/convert/frighten/love bomb me into religion and organised faith. it genuinely unsettles them that I’m not religious, they see it as an aberration or something to be fixed. I’m not a project a task to be resolved. I don’t know why religious people need to convert or convince others about god and religion. It is tiresome and patrionising, I don’t need or want fixed

What makes the order of the universe inequitable

Do you mean examples? Ok, how about... predators and prey?

Clearly, there is also inequity in our human society, and always has been. I understand that a person of faith will point out that this is due to human choices, and of course, it largely is. For a person of faith, a deity means that there is hope for those who find themselves at the sharp end of that imbalance, dying in poverty, or from abuse, or in war, or whatever. For an atheist, there is hope for humanity, but not for those individuals. The alternative is understandably attractive.

Plus, as I said earlier, my worldview can cope with the existence of faith, and its truth for those who hold it. The reverse isn't true. I don't think a person of faith would automatically be better off in my position.

I don't think there's any higher power than Mother Nature (which, IMO, is an umbrella term for physics, chemistry and biology) and she'll outwit the human species in the end.

I also believe in science, a belief in science does not exclude the possibility of a divinity though. I also think much of religion has developed in a way to control people )I think it has other purposes too). But again that doesn’t exclude the possibility of gods.

@OMG12

You see, to me, at this current point in time, it kind of does. Science works on the premise that beliefs are adapted once discoveries are made. And it's true that science has not proved that there isn't one divinity. But it has proved that all of the (man made) holy texts available so far, are not true. Therefore, any suggested divinity, from my perspective, is made up. Especially ones that have been around for thousands of years! Should there be proof of a divinity, I would like to think I am open minded enough to give that scientific evidence serious consideration. But so far... nope.

To quote Ricky Gervais

Basically, you deny one less God than I do. You don’t believe in 2,999 gods. And I don’t believe in just one more.

That’s fair enough- I wouldn’t have time for 3 kids so I have one. Not sure what it has to do with thread though. People do all manner of shit like watch love Island or the great British bake off I wouldn’t do, everyone’s different

Great - I’m not really keen on people trying to convert others either.

It was just a general observation that not many people have time to ponder the issue, as they have busy lives. So they may not have opinions that are as fully formed as yours. I am atheist because it makes absolutely no sense to me that there should be a god, or gods. I haven’t thought about it much more deeply than that, and I imagine many others are the same. It wasn’t a personal criticism of you.

(And I don’t actually have a TV, so ditto on the Love Island thing).

I’m not really sure there is anything inequitable about prey and predictor, it’s just part of the laws of the universe, one might survive slightly longer on average but both will be done do their thing and die . Both are just as important in the working of the universe, I would thing a judgement about the inequity of this is very much a subject judgement.

I’m not sure science has proved that all the holy books are wrong, I’m not even sure

That’s fair enough- I wouldn’t have time for 3 kids so I have one. Not sure what it has to do with thread though. People do all manner of shit like watch love Island or the great British bake off I wouldn’t do, everyone’s different.

I'm with you on that! We all choose how to spend our genuinely free time (however much or little of it we have). Pondering the mysteries of life a bit doesn't need to be that time-consuming.

Again, it wasn’t a criticism of how anyone spends their free time. Just an observation that many people haven’t thought about it too deeply due to other demands on their time, so their atheist views, like mine, may be based on as little as ‘it just doesn’t make sense to me’.

I’m not really sure there is anything inequitable about prey and predictor, it’s just part of the laws of the universe, one might survive slightly longer on average but both will be done do their thing and die . Both are just as important in the working of the universe, I would thing a judgement about the inequity of this is very much a subject judgement.

Yes that's the advantage of faith - it's so easy to cite 'the laws/working of the universe' when you know that there is redress beyond that universe 🙂. But one will die violently for the survival of the other, regardless of how 'well' either life is lived. Any thoughts about the rest of my post?

Ooh not sure what happened to the rest of my response there!!

my response was actually along the lines of I’m not sure science has really proved any holy books not true. I mean first we would need to decide on the “truth” they are setting out, is the book to be interpreted literally subject to a code like Gematria, is it to be read alchemically. Symbolically, allegorically? Is is a story that has been adapted from another civilisation that you have to go back and understand the context in which that story was written then apply all the above? Most religions and their “scriptures” have some truth.

Re Ricky Gervais he describes himself as an atheistic agnostic and points out, Like discussed above, everyone is agnostic to some degree. I think the quote you included was his response to an American Christian interviewer and I actually agree with him in part. But I’m a perenialist so I believe in all gods, just not necessarily the detail of their individual myth.

Ah sorry if i came across as dismissive. I think you’re 100% correct, I think a lot of teligious people also just fall into a faith. Unless something affects them/they have a particular interest people follow the path of least resistance which might be following a religion of your parents or rejecting it because it just doesn’t feel right. I guess I was aiming the question at people who have an interest in considering these issues, but you raise a very valid point.

Sorry, like the post above half my answer was missing.

im not sure that is the advantage of every faith, I don’t think there is any redress at any point in this life or any others. In my oringinsl (missing) post, I have the example of ancient Egypt where the after life was generally just a continuation of this one. Great if you’re a pharaoh shit if you’re a slave. People equate a belief in god as Abrahamic faiths which is not looking at the full picture, it’s like viewing the universe through a key hole.

Bloody hell it’s missed half the post again!!’

Re the predator/prey. Yes the prey might have a violent death to enable the predator to survive, but in time the predator will grow old and possibly have a long drawn out death. Its body will rot and feed the ground which will enable the grass to grow to feed the prey. Which is better, neither they are both important to the survival of the other. The same is true in every life form, it’s a perfect balance. The dark and the light.

i could survive quite happily as an atheist if that was what I truly felt. I have no issues with people who hold any views, I believe this diversity is necessary for the universe to truly flourish just like on the savannah

People equate a belief in god as Abrahamic faiths which is not looking at the full picture, it’s like viewing the universe through a key hole.

I haven't mentioned any particular faith, though. Just a common sense that 'this isn't all there is'. I'm very carefully separating 'faith' and 'religion', too - I find the latter highly problematic, and the former entirely natural, even though it's not my experience.

That said, the idea that we, as individual humans, can view 'the universe' through anything but a narrow and subjective lens is not something I can subscribe to. A bit arrogant, maybe, to 'just know'?