Atheists -what makes you so sure?

[OMG12]

I often wonder what makes atheists so sure that there isn’t a god. I’m not talking a particular iteration of the Divine, eg it’s easy to say I can’t believe there is a God because of childhood cancer, but that is predicated on the concept of a God who is only good and considers childhood cancer as bad and further is capable and willing to stop all bad things. I’m talking gods not religions here which a very different things.

Most cultures throughout time have have gods so it’s somewhat of an anomaly to not believe. I just wonder why people don’t believe. (And can we try and keep this a decent debate rather than any of the sky fairy shit those with an inability to debate a point beyond regurgitated social media soundbites seem limited to)

you’re saying the default position with lack of evidence is atheism?

Yes, of course. That’s why we’ve all been on about unicorns, dragons and fairies.

If I say to you that my invisible dragon (I only just acquired her this morning - it’s quite exciting) will fly over your house and torch the roof this afternoon, do you believe me? Will you make plans to be out? Check you’re insured against mythical beings? Or do you think to yourself “well I’ll believe that one when I see it” and move on?

Atheists are in the latter camp. We’ve not seen it yet, and have no reason to believe it exists, so we don’t believe. That’s it.

@PuffinsRocks The OP said she wanted to know a particular thing and I pointed out that particular thing had been explained repeatedly. I am not clear how that is confrontational- I apologise if it is. But it is a little frustrating to repeat the same point to have it asked again with difference-that-makes-no-difference amendments. It's like someone asking <scrabbles for example> "What are your clothes made out of?" And you say "Wool" and they say "Including your socks?". You reply "Yes." They say "Both socks?".....

I believe you have met my 4yo grandson.

Religion was created by men for men, and it shows.

Sorry it might have been me misunderstanding then, but that explanation of being off radar completely I understood. Although I can’t quite grasp why once the question is asked people don’t move to being agnostic - but then inertia is usually the default
when challenged. I also guess sometimes people are atheists because they’re running away from something and that might have a different psychological profile
altogether.

if you were sending over a dragon I’d perform a protection ritual to be on the safe side 😀. Hope your dragon is settling in well, they’re useful for guarding treasure I hear, probably seen as less dangerous on Mumsnet than a Labrador anyway. If it cries catch the tears they’re useful. Oh and watch out for blokes called George

@OMG12 " I also guess sometimes people are atheists because they’re running away from something and that might have a different psychological profile
altogether. " What makes you think that?
Incidentally- why do you keep ignoring the atheist/agnostic explanation you have been given several times?

Because up until the last couple of posts there has been no clear explanation to be honest! If someone keeps asking the same question it’s because the answers given haven’t been clear or answered the question. They might have all made sense to other atheists, but as I stated several pages back I find it easier to understand a believers point of view than an atheist as I obviously have a different mindset which I think I explained. It’s no good going on about Dragons as an analogy when I state I’m agnostic on those also (although I think there’s prob a better chance they existed than some religions suggestions of God😀). Simply going “it’s obvious duh” is not really logical.

@OMG12

I also guess sometimes people are atheists because they’re running away from something and that might have a different psychological profile altogether.

I think this is quite a leap and I'm not sure where you're getting that from based on people's answers?

I'm sure you don't mean to come across this way but it feels as if you won't accept any explanations as sort of 'enough' when actually this is one of those topics where both 'sides' have to agree to disagree and acknowledge they don't see the logic of the other 'side'.

Lots of people have answered thoughtfully and honestly.

Which atheist/agnostic explanation?

what makes me think that? Well if we say atheism is a default position, it requires no movement. Going from say a religious up bringing to atheism will usually require some kind of positive action of rejecting something- a totally different mindset wouldn’t you say?

See above re my answer to curlewkate re mindset. I’m not sure where you got the idea I won’t accept explanations as “enough” I’ve state clearly that I thought @aSofaNearYou had explained it very well.

It's just not part of my schema. I do not see the world in this way. Its not an interpretation that would ever occur to me. My first reaction would be 'oh a feather'. If pushed for my hypotheses on the presence of the feather, it's meaning, purpose or intent then number one on my list would that it dropped off a passing bird closely followed by it had escaped from someone's duvet and made its way out into the world. I know you want a serious debate and I don't wish to come across as flippant or arrogant but to ascribe a divine or mystical meaning would never occur to me and, if I'm honest, I genuinely struggle to understand people who do. Fair enough if people are distressed and it gives them comfort to believe this but, for me, your comment about rejecting it as a premise gives this belief more credibility than it warrants.

Or to put it more succinctly, it just isn't...

@OMG12 🤣So pushing 300 posts, including several of mine starting sometime yesterday evening aren't enough for you.....?

Quite which is why we’re discussing god not religion

It isn’t the number, it just wasn’t explained in a way I understood.

Actually that made sense in me understanding your position until the last sentence. I guess people just have different frames for the world. Personally o think it might or might not be is amore logical premise premise for most of these things. But now understand people have different starting points,

Now this is the interesting point that I’m trying to grasp, what makes a person an atheist? Now I have assumed the default position is agnostic because there is no proof either way, but you’re saying the default position with lack of evidence is atheism? Maybe I’ve been asking the wrong question, or assuming the wrong thing. That’s really helpful thank you. People aren’t even really asking the question is there a god? Where the default position e we pull be agnostic if they asked. If the question isn’t asked the default position is atheism? Is that correct? (Sorry if a bit muddled - it’s a stream of consciousness)

Yes I would say this is about right.

I don't have any evidence that it exists, and further to that, the theory does not sound likely to me. So the default position to me is that it very, very probably does not exist and that there's no reason to think it does.

If you take for example the concept of extra terrestrial life. I've never seen any evidence of it, in the same way I haven't seen evidence of God. But when I consider the vastness of space, I find it quite likely that other life exists out there in some form. The concepts involved in theism and religion do not seem at all likely to me, in fact lots of it seems very convenient and easy to link back to wishful thinking and the desire for societal control.

So when you pair together the fact that there is no evidence, and the fact that it seems very unlikely, naturally the default position is that I don't believe it. The only reason I've even spared it any thought, is because other people have, if you know what I mean. If others hadn't suggested it, I would never have naturally woken up and pondered to myself whether there was an unprovable almighty being presiding over us all, who made the world etc etc. That would never have occurred to me, and my response would have been "of course there isn't, why would I think that?", if asked. I'm sure the world wasn't made by a God in the same way I'm sure it wasn't made by Mr Blobby, no I don't have evidence either way, but why would I think it was? If that makes sense. I don't have anything inside me telling me it's a likely theory.

I think most atheists have a tiny bit of what you might call agnosticism in them, where if they were shown any proof, they might change their mind, as with anything. If you can only be an atheist if you would stand by that believe whatever new evidence came your way, then yes, most people would be classed as agnostic. But I think for many of us, the term implies being on the fence, perhaps even thinking there is a compelling argument on both sides. I don't think that's the case for most people who would class themselves as an atheist.

Ah, thank you for your clear explanation, I understand where you’re coming from now. I guess from my perspective it’s kind of a question that’s there all the time, sometimes it’s difficult seeing another persons perspective unless you ask them ( which is the main reason I started this thread). It’s strange how one persons most important question means nothing to others, but I guess that’s one of the things which makes life great is we all see it from different perspectives.

Yes, i do only see god as a very narrow religious construct. A more cosmic definition for god/god energy doesn’t resonate with me either. I believe we are merely one of the lifeforms on this earth, we don’t matter any more than the other life forms, and religion/god is a way to alleviate the futility of our existence.

This is actually very similar to my own perspective,I know people with lots of belief systems and none. I believe in finding the right path for you too

Just wanted to pop back and say thanks for this recommendation-it arrived today,only read the introduction and chapter 1 so far but it looks like it’s going to be an excellent read.

That’s fair enough, you say life is futile, does that affect you in any way either positively or negatively?

I also guess sometimes people are atheists because they’re running away from something and that might have a different psychological profile
altogether.

Why would being an atheist be a sign of running away from something? Surely if you're running away from something, you are likely to want to find refuge in something? That's pretty much what religion was invented for! Scared of death? Baffled by the complexities and dangers of life? Don't worry - put your faith in <insert deity name> and everything will be ok!

Actually many of the atheists I know are recovering members of religious organisations, they seek refuge in atheism as the most extreme rejection of their past.

It’s strange how one persons most important question means nothing to others.

I don't think the question necessarily means nothing to atheists. It would be a bit odd to be uninterested in why humans are so drawn to religious belief and in how much it has shaped all societies. As a staunch atheist I find it a fascinating topic.

Actually many of the atheists I know are recovering members of religious organisations, they seek refuge in atheism as the most extreme rejection of their past.

I see what you mean, but I wouldn't really regard the rejection of something you have realised is false as 'running away'.