Have you or your kids been to Soul Survivor?

[Coffeeandcards]

You might want to read this if so:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-charity-watchdog/

the basic premise in many churches seems to be that any mistake you make, even a tiny one, is a catastrophic moral failure that makes you worthy of burning in hell forever.

@PrimitivePerson Not my experience at all and I do believe in a literal hell. Experience is what makes us grow - humans learn valuable lessons from messing up. The important message to takeaway should be to admit and own our mistakes, sincerely ask God to forgive us and try our best to do better next time. Christians will never be perfect people this side of eternity.

Dust you seem so keen to convince people that their experiences didn't happen - there's 1000s of people who've had difficult experience and it's really important we listen to them rather than constantly negate their experiences.

@DustintheWindDude May I politely suggest that if you want to talk about how fantastic your experience of charismatic evangelicalism was, you might be on the wrong thread?

I know a LOT of people who have been very messed up by it. I know all the theology, you don't have to spout it at me. It's all nonsense. If you actually believe in Hell, I would suggest you go away and think carefully about the logical conclusions of that belief. They're not pretty. If God is willing to burn us in Hell forever for even really minor things, then he's truly a monster and doesn't deserve us worshipping him.

@DustintheWindDude It also sounds like you're trying to witness to people. Again, on a thread like this, seriously bad move. Have some sensitivity, please.

I'm not trying to erase other people's experiences. They sound awful and these things should never have happened. What I'm trying to get across is that you can't tar everyone with the same brush. Churches are full of people and where there's a group of people together there's inevitably going to be problems. These problems are often magnified in situations where there's heightened emotions, like these sorts of churches. Does it attract weirdos? Yes. Should there be adequate safeguarding? Also yes.

@BadSkiingMum What kind of guidelines? Who is writing them?

@PrimitivePerson I'm sorry if you're offended by my attempts to defend a belief system I feel very passionate about. I am however confused that a Christian wouldn't actually believe in hell. If you read the Bible you can't avoid it. I also believe we as Christians are supposed to take every opportunity to witness to people.

@DustintheWindDude Right. Let me spell out a few things for you.

1. I'm not a Christian any more, because I have been seriously abused and damaged by the Church.
2. Beliefs on Hell vary enormously from one church to another, and the evangelical view of Hell is far from universal.
3. I find the evangelical view of Hell to be grossly offensive, and it can't possibly be true, because it's so obnoxious. It simply doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
4. Because of my trauma, I can't go anywhere near a church any more.
5. Do not witness to me. Ever. This is a hard boundary that will I not have anyone cross.
6. Do not pray for me either. I know I won't know if you do, and I know you'll probably feel like you should, but I absolutely, 100%, do not wish to be prayed for under any circumstances. I won't "see the light", because I saw it before, and it ruined my life. I won't make the same mistake twice.

I know that might sound harsh, but I've had enough toxic crap from Christians in the past, and I'm not having any more. This thread is absolutely full of people who have been badly damaged by this, and the last thing they need is someone saying "actually, you're wrong! Christians are all great!"

There are several instances of ‘Don’t form relationships with non-believers’ described on this thread - verbal guidance from ministers, youth workers, peers…

I completely respect your right to hold your beliefs but please allow this thread to be a space to discuss the issues. There are some serious disclosures on this thread, especially around young people, and people need that opportunity.

Do people think it's worth setting up a separate Religious/Spiritual Abuse thread to separate this out from specifically what's going on with Mike Pilavachi?

Ok @PrimitivePerson out of respect for you and the many posters who have had damaging experiences I'll bow out now, though it hurts my heart. As a parting shot I will say that Jesus loves you and everyone else on this thread.

the last thing they need is someone saying "actually, you're wrong! Christians are all great!"

For the record this isn't what I said/implied.

@DustintheWindDude After what I've just said, I find the "Jesus loves you" comment to be extremely crass. Please leave me alone.

(((Primate))) can relate to that so much.

It's so bizarre talking to people still I'm the fold. I can completely remember the frame of mind I was in when I was like dust. Its like you can see so much more when you leave, like losing blinkers.

And people just don't see that denying abuse tk people that have suffered abuse, and are trying to talk about preventing it, isn't a good look and doesn't make people respect them any more.

@LotsOfBalloons Thank you. I'm feeling extremely agitated by Dust's comments and attitudes, as you can probably tell. Seriously, coming on to a thread about religious abuse and trying to witness to people?!?

I was there too, of course, so I completely understand where they're coming from. I know all their theology, everything they're being told by their leaders, and their desperate need to defend the church at all costs. I also know when someone is gaslightling me and trying to make me come back into the fold. I absolutely will not have it.

Obviously not all Christians are abusive. That doesn't mean we can't talk about the fact that some people are using the church to be abusive. Wild that anyone remotely pleasant would take it as anything other than an opportunity to learn from the people they've inadvertently hurt so that the church they love so much can do better. Maybe we should all rock up in a church and have a full blown hissy fit like Jesus himself did?

@Username84 Spot on. There's a huge amount of pressure to sweep abuse under the carpet and stop it being exposed, and that's a specific form of abuse in itself. The church I was in used to bang on at great length about "bringing the gospel into disrepute", which was effectively code for "whatever you do, don't be honest about what goes on in here, and keep quiet about anything dodgy going on".

This is precisely how Mike Pilavachi has got away with his abusive shenanigans for so long. His victims were intimidated into silence.

Yes to both of you. Spot on. And Dust isn't alone... exactly what you're up against when you try to challenge the culture that leads to abuse.

Yes so true

So, not only do you believe in a literal hell of everlasting torment, but you can't believe that any Christian wouldn't believe that the concept of a loving and merciful God is just a little at odds with God sending people to be tormented and tortured for all eternity....

And why? Because the Bible says so? Any why believe the Bible? Because the Bible says so? Can't you see the circular logic!

A hell if everlasting torment is one of the cruellest and vile concepts ever devised, and in my opinion, promoting it is itself spiritually abusive... it's messed up millions of people's minds over the millennia, and caused me huge angst when I was a Christian.

@guineacup I do also believe that God is loving and merciful and gives people many opportunities to come to know him.
It is not spiritually abusive to teach about hell and how not to go there if such a place does exist.
I also believe the Bible is the word of God, so yes, I will follow what it says.

Didn't stay away long, did you?

I'm reporting you.

Er, excuse me? Who made you the thread police? Someone addressed me with a question, which I answered. I have as much right as you to be here thank you very much.

You've already been told that you've been triggering people and belittling their suffering.

The Church of England does not teach that sinners will be eternally tormented in Hell. In fact a very quick Google turned up an article that says that the reason it has 39 Articles not 42 is because three concerning hell were removed before they were affirmed.

A C of E priest told me just the other day that the C of E's official teaching is that while there is a hell it's empty. She was quite explicit: that's the official Church position on the subject and it has been so for at least 50 years.

There may be some on the Evangelical wing who say differently but they would be out of step with the Church's teaching.

This is something a lot of hardcore evangelicals don't realise - they're actually outliers in their teaching on Hell. The vast majority of Christians the world over have far more moderate views.