Have you or your kids been to Soul Survivor?

[Coffeeandcards]

You might want to read this if so:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-charity-watchdog/

I full respect those who believe sec is reserved for marriage. I actually believe that the abuse of sex is wrong. But I have an issue for being shunned by the church for even the suspicion of sex outside of marriage
I have an issue with structures that glorify the cult of personality and so allow charismatic leaders free reign
I have an issue with churches who are desperate for converts they hoover up the vulnerable but then spit them out when moving on to the next convert.

There are many of us who have been scarred (to various degrees) by evangelical churches. Many of us are still Christians. It’s great to have a place to discuss this and realise we were not alone - and that we weren’t the ones with the problem.

Its also good to discuss the features in the evangelical movement that have contributed to the issues with MP and SS - and to acknowledge that this isn’t an isolated incident that can be written off as a single bad egg and swept under the carpet

I actually think that's part of the problem. The fear of any criticism as "evangelical bashing" and ha ing to put up a front that "all is well". In some circles any criticism is seen as the devil trying to destroy etc....

Rather than an honest look at the concerns a whole host of people have had and the negative impact its had on their/our lives.

Could you please explain what you mean by the 'cult of personality' @NotEspeciallyHappyValley?

In some circles any criticism is seen as the devil trying to destroy etc....

What you're describing sounds like a weird cult @LotsOfBalloons not an extension of the C of E.

I mean the ‘celebrity’ preachers, leaders, ministers who have a name that is bigger than the church. Found in all churches, and indeed all walks of life. People like MP were charismatic (in both senses of the word) and larger than life figures who were held up, revered and idolised. In the worst cases it became more about ‘them’ than the church, or the message
It’s hard to understate just how big a personality in the evangelical and youth ministry world MP was. And he’s not the only one. It’s not healthy and at it’s worst allows power to run amok without checks.

Sorry if I’m not explaining it very well! I know what I mean but it’s hard to put it in words!

It's not uncommon in charismatic circles that they pray against things that might destroy/attack/bind.. or start playing that "opponents/those that criticise" migbt "see the light of jesus etc". Its thinly veiled but its there.

"Jesus we just pray against those that seek to bring you down/dishonour your name...." etc.

I know what you mean NotEspecially and it's often there with "big name" leaders. When when I was in that world we'd talk about it as a bad thing.... but one "others" did! (Usually prosperity gospel teachers.) And completely didn't see how much we were falling susceptible to it too.

Thanks for explaining @NotEspeciallyHappyValley I know the sort you mean. I'm surprised and saddened so many people fuel these people's ego, particularly in the church where Christians should be actively avoiding idolising anything/one.

Were there prosperity preachers in Soul Survivor? @LotsOfBalloons

No they were examples of the "outside" people that were criticised as they weren't from within. Yet while criticising those who they disapprove of (prosperity gospel/American pentecostalism and cult of personality around Benny Hinn etc) while not seeing how damaging it is putting leaders like MP and matt redman, and other speakers and worship leaders on a pedestal. You see it on a small scale in big churches too where people are chuffed to be prayed for by X, they want t advice from X, want to be chosen to be in the gap team/ministry team/worship band whatever it is that's seen as prestigious.

It happens so easily and isn't just something "others" (American penticostalists for ecample) do but something all humans can do its human nature and why its important to reflect on our processes, particularly those in evangelical and charismatic evangelical world as mentioned by others above. Its not just about weeding a few people out but looking at the culture that allows it to happen.

Good to hear they're not teaching that rubbish at least! I can see why that sort of set up would appeal to teenagers or anyone mildly vulnerable. I briefly went to a Baptist church during university which included a church weekend away (big group of young people). It involved quite intense prayer/ Bible study sessions with lots of crying, arm waving and the like which I didn’t feel entirely comfortable with. Funnily enough the minister was also the 'larger than life' sort and had kind of 'pet students'. I didn’t pander to him and therefore never got more than a "hello", despite getting stuck into voluntary work. Left that church after about 6 months and found one far better.

Ah yes that's it exactly! Well done seeing through it :)

I think student churches are sometimes the worst for it partly because of demographic!

they pray against things that might destroy/attack/bind

Surely this is standard Christian practice? "Get thee behind me Satan" and all that..

Thanks😉

Yes exactly my point - and the implication is that it is those who are critiquing that are the problem! So in light of safeguarding enquiry that type of language might be used. We're coming full circle so I think I might go to bed now!

I see, so not the general 'deliver us from evil' scenario @LotsOfBalloons. Peaceful dreams to you.

Very late to this thread but just chiming in to say my experiences of Soul Survivor and the extremes of evangelical Christianity in England chime with many others on this thread. Horrible guilt (especially about sex) and self esteem issues (I remember one talk where we were all told repeatedly “you are scum” for half an hour, with some spurious biblical justification, which left many of us in tears).

One of our church youth leaders had sex with the daughter of another youth leader the day after her 16th birthday (which apparently meant it was “okay” and didn’t need reporting). At the same time, we were being given “sex talks” on Sunday evenings, & told that sex outside marriage was absolutely wrong and abhorrent.

I also attended a church for a while which refused to accept women preachers, on the basis that women should not have authority over men. I raged about this for months but was told it was me sinfully resisting the Lord.

I could go on… but just wanted to say thanks for this space to try to reflect on some of the damage done by these “leaders” to so many of us.

Gosh yes - a whole world of "women are equal in value but different in function" basically meaning women couldnt lead or preach... I went to Stoneleigh a few times and a friends New Frontiers church as I loved the youth group/ music - but its right through their ethos and so damaging even if you try to tell yourself you'll ignore that aspect of it!

And yes Worried - all the ways we got mixed messages about sex and relationships has damaged so many people's marriages. Often they are the ones that slip away from church so the "successful" ones are the ones in church promoting it but you dont see all the collateral damage of broken relatinships on the way.

The messages we got about sex and relationships in my teens were really unhealthy and led to a lot of problems in my church youth group. I know it's tricky when you're married and one of you is a Christian and one of you isn't but the whole "no going out with a non Christian" thing when you are 13 and you only know 3 Christian boys isn't helpful. No wonder several of the girls at my church had a crush on the youth worker.

Enlarging on that, the basic premise in many churches seems to be that any mistake you make, even a tiny one, is a catastrophic moral failure that makes you worthy of burning in hell forever.

Whatever way you look at it, that's an absolutely horrifying thing to tell a teenager. As an awkward kid who tended to say and do the wrong thing fairly often, that had a truly devastating impact on me that I still haven't got over.

On a basic level, the ‘no relationships with outsiders’ rule is a very effective way to keep attractive and fertile young people within the church community. 🤔

I remember one talk where we were all told repeatedly “you are scum” for half an hour

Seriously? @Worried1305 they used the words "you are scum" - and more than once?! Where on earth was this 'church'?

Think you're getting your churches mixed up there.🤔

A close friend of mine nearly got caught up in this via the CU when she started university. Her first visit home was spent telling me about all the rules of her new Christian life. A slightly creepy older CU member (male) had been busily indoctrinating her in these ideas, presumably with a view to her forming a relationship with himself. Thankfully, by the time of her second weekend visit, another far nicer chap had caught her eye and she rapidly began enjoying sex with him (and later married him in fact!) much to the dismay of the first man who presumably consigned her to hell or wherever it is these wanton women who consort with unbelievers properly belong…

@DustintheWindDude
No, I’m not getting anything mixed up because it is a fairly common guideline in evangelical and charismatic churches.