Have you or your kids been to Soul Survivor?

[Coffeeandcards]

You might want to read this if so:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-charity-watchdog/

I'm a practising Christian and I hate the whole "come to the front of you have xyz issue and you'll get healed (and if you don't it's your own fault)"

I'm a Christian too and I can't stand this either. Saw a quote recently that summed it up: 'To have a good theology of healing, it helps to first have a good theology of suffering'. Too many churches focus on this 'get healed and if you don't, it's your own fault' nonsense and it's literally that - nonsense. It's usually always said too by people who've never had to deal with health problems or loss.

I was a child of 80s Christianity and remember singing along to DC Talk and Delirious and Eden Burning. I went to the festivals (anyone remember Stoneleigh?) but I've watched how perhaps more recently something totally new is emerging. All these scandals and I see more people tired of prosperity teaching, celebrity pastors, mega churches and theology which just doesn't work outside of a church setting, but they also can't give up on what they believe as it's core to who they are.

At one point I got caught up in a church which (looking back now) was a cult. It was part of a mainstream denomination and the leaders were incredibly (but oh-so-subtly) massively controlling. There was all this jostling to be 'seen' by them, to serve them, to be on the 'nice list'. If you dared to question anything you'd be punished by being uninvited to things, publicly shamed or ignored. It nearly crushed me until, through a lot of different experiences I finally got the courage to leave (and never look back!).

These days, I love being part of something that is less about 'smoke and emotional experiences' but more about a real relationship with God. In our church we don't do 'control' and safeguarding is a big deal. All the leaders are trained and DBS checked and if stuff crops up, it's dealt with swiftly and transparently. We're a small community of people who really do look out for each other and others too and it's about as unglossy as it can possibly get. We just look back to the original first church and use that as a model.

I think the days of the celebrity pastor are numbered. Not everyone's got the message yet though!

Yes very much my experience in the 80s especially the controlling house church and the almost showman like come to the front services

We believed it all so earnestly, always waiting for God to say something about us. I remember one time at a big evangelical service my friend had a bag of weed in her pocket and the preacher man started with the "There is someone here who needs God, He has told me about a girl..." my friend was so scared God was gonna grass her up 😂 she was like oh no what if it's me 😂 then preacher man says "19 year old in trouble" and my friend was like PHEW ! She was convinced God had spotted the weed in her pocket and had whispered it to preacher man 😂

The messages from God were so weirdly detailed, but in such a big crowd it was bound to apply to someone

"God is telling me there is a young man, aged 15, who has had an argument with his Dad today. God wants you to know if you come to the front and pray, you can heal the rift in your family"
We'd always be hanging on to each detail to see if God was calling us out that time 😂

I never got a message ☹️

Yes I remember going to Benny Hin and wanting to receive a message

I remember this too. It’s just like the mediums which Derren Brown takes to task. But I still have a niggle when I now think this way, like I don’t have enough faith…

".... my friend had a bag of weed in her pocket and the preacher man started with the "There is someone here who needs God, He has told me about a girl..." my friend was so scared God was gonna grass her up 😂

Love the pun! 😂

This is awful.

I must have gone to SS in its early days about three or four times. I had a blast each time. Christianity at the time was so uncool. Music, for example. The options were hymns or not-very-good pop-rock-substitute that was like a Trabant compared to a Mini. Just for those few days it was cool. Such a relief. I remember watching bands at SS that were actually decent, and I don't specifically mean the worship band.

I never formed any particular impression of MP or any of the other leaders except that they weren't cringe. And that's probably why people got away with things. Church then was just utterly cringe and anyone who wasn't was a massive asset.

I was probably only in the charismatic scene for about four years and then I moved up the candle. I'm a bit embarrassed about it and have brought up my kids in a very staid, trad church and won't ever tell them about my charismatic exploits. The problem is that those churches are dying out, having been replaced by the cool ones.

Also, in a horrible irony, I do remember talk about sexual abuse at SS - ie encouragement for victims to seek help. I remember Matt Redman saying, from the stage, that he'd been abused and that people shouldn't be shamed into silence. That would have been in the mid-90s when such things were starting to me discussed. A girl at my evo CofE church did the same from the front of the church. Good for you CS, wherever you are. I've always had such respect for their bravery in speaking up, especially as I feel they were among the very first. So I'm hugely saddened at this news.

Another irony.

At the time (mid-90s) a friend was involved in the Pentecostal movement.

There was a massive difference between the overwhelmingly white, middle-class, rather decorous charismatic movement based around SS, New Wine etc, and the C of E, Baptists, Methodists etc, and mostly ethnic-minority Pentecostals. I would church-hop with my friend around Pentecostal churches around London. They were scary. Very pushy places. Big, big American prosperity gospel influence, and absolute loons like Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland had big followings.

Wow Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland are still going. Just went down a Google rabbit hole. And completely loaded. How do so many people follow them?

I remember as teens we were very much "Not like them" as charismatic. I think most churches like to distance themselves from the "other" and make themselves feel more acceptable.

Even through "just get back to a real relationship with God" and "acts 4 living/back to first century church" were catchphrases then 20 odd years ago. Each group liked to think they weren't affected by other stuff and just "getting back to X" unlikely y and z over there...

If you haven’t seen it - check out ‘preachers sneakers’ on instagram. Says it all really.

I apologise to any Pentecostals reading what I say next.

I do think there was more dodginess about the Pentecostals than the Charismatics. And I also think the cult of the Big Leader came from that portion of Christianity. I remember Pentecostal churches being really pushy about donating money and it was expected that the pastor maintained a comparatively luxurious lifestyle. The notion that God will made you rich if you are a good enough Christian (including by donating more money than you can afford) comes from Pentecostalism.

My experience was that there was an atmosphere of wilful blindness about the whole movement. For example, I went to Morris Cerullo's Mission to London back in the 90s. I should have been at some gig instead, but on the other hand at least I want choking on a fug of tobacco and weed. I remember down the front a battalion of wheelchair-users waiting to be healed. I also remember the altar call at the end. Everyone around me went down (despite all clearly being Christians already), and I knew they'd all be counted in the stats as converted heathens.

I do think it matters that churches like the Anglicans, Methodists, Baptists, URC etc haven't much tradition of the Big Leader who can Do What He Likes because he's Anointed By God.

I'm not aware of many - any - sex scandals in the non-white Pentecostal churches. I'm a complete cynic there. I think it's just that no one has come forward.

Yes a hotline to God attitude

I did go to KT at times but it was reasonable apart from the visit from Bennie Hinn

One of the issues with Soul survivor etc from my pov is that membership of the CofE gave them a credibility, a safety, to parents and older adults. No one expects cults in the cucumber sandwiches, more tea vicar, safety of the CofE.

What this scandal shows is that no church, no religion, can be lax about these things. It's not a Pentecostal, or a Catholic, problem. It's pervasive. The rot is widespread, and embedded. And those who think "well, I wasn't part of it" yet allowed soul survivor types to recruit on their patch, allowed this to happen- well they are guilty too. They are rotten, too.

@fairypeasant there is a great blog about this, 'We are all implicated subjects', available at: mrsglw.wordpress.com/2023/05/27/we-are-all-implicated-subjects/ So thought provoking.

Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland are part of the Word of Faith movement. It's so, so wrong and goes against what is said in the Bible. So many people being led away from the truth.

I missed a couple of pages in the middle of this thread so apologies if this has already been covered but is the sacking of the C of E's abuse panel related to the MP case? The article on the BBC site doesn't mention MP or SS at all, so maybe not, it just seemed like interesting timing... 🤔
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65977524

What now?!?!

What this scandal shows is that no church, no religion, can be lax about these things. It's not a Pentecostal, or a Catholic, problem. It's pervasive. The rot is widespread, and embedded

I agree with all of this but I think that while it's pervasive there's no harm in saying that in some areas it's more pervasive than others. The issue here is lack of accountability. That's a thoroughly embedded feature in a culture that encourages obedience to the Big Man Pastor. It's even more dangerous when that idea gets an opening in a denomination with a safe and staid image like the Church of England.

I don't think you can get much more resistance to accountability than thinking you can sack your independent panel. What arrogance.

I had high hopes that with soul survivor being exposed would come reform. This demonstrates a really sinister level of corruption and demonstrates that the C of E is untouchable and they know it.

Looking at the Twitter of the two independent members of the panel they are as flabbergasted as the rest of us. Interestingly the third member, who apparently also has a CofE role (how?) has been asked to stay on.

Not exactly independent when they have another church role, is it?

They are closing ranks.

Anyone who stays working for the church is complicit.

@OnSusansFloor Interesting timing indeed.

This has been brewing for some time. The article refers to April which coincides directly with the MP investigation, the first documented evidence of which is on 31 March 2023 with the resignation of a director at Soul Survivor linked to the investigation (God Loves Women The Soul Survivor Situation A Timeline).

This is a useful article by the BBC, providing links to the reports, which I am sure the CofE will not like.
To say I am loosing respect and trust in the CofE is an understatement.
To keep on the only person with a clear conflict of interest is the Soul Survivor situation writ large.

The Church is rotten to the core.