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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

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42
IronLikeaLioninZion · 10/06/2023 22:44

PrimitivePerson · 09/06/2023 22:42

@CoachBeardsJane Ugh, how utterly horrible. :( That session on trauma sounds like it was an absolute disaster, and I dread to think how many poor kids had to go home from that in absolute pieces, with no-one there to look after them or understand what had happened.

Sadly, hardcore charismatic Christians like this will dump any sensible scientific or rational thought on this stuff, and dismiss any concerns, because they think God is big enough just to deal with it all. Unfortunately, if God doesn't miraculously heal you from all your traumas, you'll get the blame for it, for not having enough faith. That's another trauma in itself, right there, guaranteed to shred your self-image even further. :(

The only significant trauma in my life is religious trauma.

I'm what you'd probably think of as a "charismatic Christian". I've had counselling sessions through the NHS at least 3 times, including CBT and EMDR, along with meds. There's no shame in seeking help through these routes. It wouldn't have even crossed my mind to try therapy through the church.

LotsOfBalloons · 11/06/2023 05:01

That's great that that's your experience. And yes much better for chufches to realise that that's a role for trained counsellors.

But many of us have been in the type of churches, like soul survivor, where there's a "call to the front" to deal with X issue. Whatever they think God wants to deal with that week and sometimes it's "I think God wants to heal people who have had x happen" or " come to the front if you want to seek forgiveness/give forgiveness for family relations". I've been out a few years now so I'm put of touch a bit . Or "God wants to bring peace/ co.e if you want to fully trust God/give life to God (subtext often being depression is where we don't fully trust God etc.)

It's not a direct "come to the front instead of therapy" but a subtle expectation. That you'll be "healed". And then the underlying belief there's something wrong with you if not! Having said that, I heard a lovely talk about "prayer and prozac" by a senior leader in the vineyard- but the weekly Prayer At The End Of The Service was also supposed to fix you. A bit of doublethink.

elliejjtiny · 11/06/2023 15:03

I'm a practising Christian and I hate the whole "come to the front of you have xyz issue and you'll get healed (and if you don't it's your own fault)" stuff. My ds has a medical condition that was diagnosed in utero and lots of people prayed that he would be miraculously healed while I was pregnant and leave the Drs baffled and scratching their heads. But I had strong feelings that a dramatic healing was not going to happen for ds. What I really appreciated was the people who sat with my older dc and filled in their school dinner forms until the end of term and the old lady from our church who held my hands and said she didn't know what she could do to help so she had made me a sponge cake.

When I was teaching Sunday school we had to do safeguarding training where we learnt about when to involve professionals and what to do if a child tells you something concerning. Thankfully I never had to deal with any of that but I had the training and people like Mike and the other leaders at soul survivor would have had loads more training than me. I've seen the safeguarding policies at these places and I find it very worrying that Mike has been doing this for so long without being stopped and investigated. It just goes against everything that I thought soul survivor was about.

LotsOfBalloons · 11/06/2023 15:53

I genuinely think they think safeguarding is to catch "bad people" or people who aren't really Christian infiltrating the church for nefarious aims. I think they are completely blind to what is going on on front of them.

AccidentallyFabulous · 11/06/2023 16:03

@elliejjtiny

I'm a practising Christian and I hate the whole "come to the front of you have xyz issue and you'll get healed (and if you don't it's your own fault)" stuff. My ds has a medical condition that was diagnosed in utero and lots of people prayed that he would be miraculously healed while I was pregnant and leave the Drs baffled and scratching their heads. But I had strong feelings that a dramatic healing was not going to happen for ds. What I really appreciated was the people who sat with my older dc and filled in their school dinner forms until the end of term and the old lady from our church who held my hands and said she didn't know what she could do to help so she had made me a sponge cake.

You could be me! Both my DC have (different) life-ling medical conditions diagnosed in utero. I know people prayed for miraculous healing and I told people I was happy for them to do that, but it wasn't something I 'had faith' for myself. Those people were acting out of deep love and a desire that things wouldn't be as bad as expected, and I appreciated it. But what I appreciated most of all was the woman who drove to my house, knocked the door, and handed over a bunch of my favourite flowers saying "I just want you to know you're loved"

I still think of that moment very fondly.

woodhill · 11/06/2023 16:28

LotsOfBalloons · 11/06/2023 05:01

That's great that that's your experience. And yes much better for chufches to realise that that's a role for trained counsellors.

But many of us have been in the type of churches, like soul survivor, where there's a "call to the front" to deal with X issue. Whatever they think God wants to deal with that week and sometimes it's "I think God wants to heal people who have had x happen" or " come to the front if you want to seek forgiveness/give forgiveness for family relations". I've been out a few years now so I'm put of touch a bit . Or "God wants to bring peace/ co.e if you want to fully trust God/give life to God (subtext often being depression is where we don't fully trust God etc.)

It's not a direct "come to the front instead of therapy" but a subtle expectation. That you'll be "healed". And then the underlying belief there's something wrong with you if not! Having said that, I heard a lovely talk about "prayer and prozac" by a senior leader in the vineyard- but the weekly Prayer At The End Of The Service was also supposed to fix you. A bit of doublethink.

Yes

Heard all that before

grass321 · 11/06/2023 17:58

The healing at the front strategy is quite interesting. I definitely remember that from new wine and youth group camps. And the falling over randomly from standing.

As a relative non believer now, I do wonder about the power of the mind. Along the lines of Derren Brown's shows on faith healing. Not for serious medical conditions but potentially teaching our brains to react differently. Not sure I've explained it terribly well but like a placebo effect.

Natsku · 12/06/2023 09:02

The falling over thing, when I went to some evangelical big tent meeting with my ex-inlaws a few years ago they had the speakers going around the place to pray and lay hands on people and everyone was falling over and I was getting more and more suspicious and then he did it to me, he definitely pushed me, had to stumble backwards to not fall over.

LotsOfBalloons · 12/06/2023 09:19

It used to happen to me sometimes - and to be fair I was never pushed in SS or Vineyard settings. They were quite clear in training about it.

I dont quite know what to make of it now. At the time it sometimes felt very powerful, euphoric/healing/bathed in light and all the rest.

I wonder if it's a mix of music/priming/expectation and release in a way mindfulness/meditation can be. Or that nice bit at the end of a yoga class when you lie down and relax!

LotsOfBalloons · 12/06/2023 09:22

And I think although I liked it at the time it messed with my head. I was clearly suffering from trauma after an abusive childhood and i just felt "broken" so after each of these type things I'd think I was "healed" or a bit had been fixed and was all super grateful and all. But then my maladaptive coping strategies were still there and I still felt broken.

Then there was the emphasises on feeling close to God/in his presence. Feel him answering prayers/guiding you in prayer etc. So if you didn't feel that you'd feel not quite right. So there was a constant striving and inner pressure to be listening to god/not falling out of gods will/hearing his voice.

It's enough to make anyone nuts.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/06/2023 14:15

It's manipulating vulnerable/immature people, that's what it is. Clear to see in retrospect. (Soul survivor was after my time, but there were various other events in the 70s and 80s)

woodhill · 12/06/2023 18:01

Do you also find the sinning and repentance difficult

I know I do as in all honesty I don't feel like I have done anything wrong but somehow everything is sinful

robobot · 12/06/2023 22:19

woodhill · 12/06/2023 18:01

Do you also find the sinning and repentance difficult

I know I do as in all honesty I don't feel like I have done anything wrong but somehow everything is sinful

Yes. I think teaching this creates guilt which keeps people ‘compliant’. I left the church over 20 years ago and still can’t shake the guilt completely even now. It’s part of the emotional manipulation in my opinion.

emmeline8228 · 13/06/2023 07:00

robobot · 12/06/2023 22:19

Yes. I think teaching this creates guilt which keeps people ‘compliant’. I left the church over 20 years ago and still can’t shake the guilt completely even now. It’s part of the emotional manipulation in my opinion.

I am the same. I just can't shake it. I've managed for years to avoid those feelings as I have found a way of ignoring them but this Mike Pilavachi situation has been a trigger for me and I feel like I did over 20 years ago, guilt and bad about myself. How do you move on from that, it's hard

Coffeeandcards · 13/06/2023 08:28

Christianity is predicated on the bedrock that we are all arseholes. All sinners needing a saviour. It’s the line the Church has used to control humans for millenia.

OP posts:
FluffyCat17 · 13/06/2023 22:03

I chime with the people for whom the healing/other type of experience at the end didn’t happen - while it was happening around me. Why was I not chosen, what’s wrong with me? As a teen trying their best to follow the narrow way this was so very hard.

Cherryana · 16/06/2023 04:33

@FluffyCat17 - that’s a horrible feeling isn’t it. I realised that I wasted so much time thinking I was doing something wrong that was hindering God in my life.

Re: sinning and guilt …it’s a hard feeling to get rid of really. Even today it popped up for me but I for the most part try to be a bit more understanding that I am a bunch of contradictions.

takingcareofme2023 · 17/06/2023 13:22

@KeepHavingFun I have managed to copy and paste:

Bishop cannot call for Soul Survivor independent inquiry over threat of 'disciplinary action'

Angry victims say 'self-policing by the church has clearly failed’

By
Gabriella Swerling,
SOCIAL AND RELIGIOUS AFFAIRS EDITOR
16 June 2023 • 6:31pm

A bishop has suggested he cannot call for an independent investigation into the Soul Survivor scandal because he fears being punished by church authorities.

The Bishop of St Albans, the Rt Revd Dr Alan Smith, said that he is “constrained” by the threat of “disciplinary action” according to notes from a summit meeting within the diocese seen by this newspaper.

His comments come in response to mounting pressure from victims – and now his own congregants – asking him to call for the Church of England to commission an independent investigation into Rev Canon Mike Pilavachi, 65, and his Soul Survivor church and festivals.

The calls come after earlier this year The Telegraph revealed allegations surrounding the vicar, who founded the Soul Survivor Watford church and its popular namesake youth festivals, which ran from 1993 to 2019 and attracted around 30,000 teenagers from all over the world each summer.

It was claimed that he ran “a cult” in which a “conveyor belt” of attractive young men – usually around aged 18 to 21 – were encouraged to receive full-body oil massages on his bed, engage in vigorous wrestling matches and endure spiritual torment and psychological torment. Victims also claimed that the Christian youth festival founder has “left a trail of broken, young male adults scattered all around the world”.

As a result of the allegations, Rev Canon Mike Pilavachi was suspended from Soul Survivor Watford, in Hertfordshire, while the Church of England’s National Safeguarding Team (NST) and the Diocese of St Albans continue to carry out an investigation into the allegations.

Rev Canon Mike Pilavachi was suspended from Soul Survivor Watford CREDIT: Soul Survivor
Victims ‘do not trust church to mark its own homework’

Victims have already sounded the alarm claiming that they do not “trust the church to mark its own homework” and two pastors who stepped up to cover Rev Canon Pilavachi following his suspension, were themselves suspended just weeks later over allegations they failed to act on concerns.

Now the bishop, whose diocese covers the Soul Survivor Watford church, has been asked by members of his own congregation to pressure the Church of England into formally launching an investigation carried out by professionals from outside the institution.

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However, he said that he cannot because speaking out during an ongoing internal church investigation would mean failing to comply with church regulations, and this “may result in disciplinary action” for him. Victims and their advocates have responded that they do not have “faith in the process” following his comments, and that a lack of independent scrutiny “looks to most people like a cover up”.

The bishop’s remarks came in response to a written question submitted to the St Albans Diocesan Synod, a process in which clergy and lay congregants gather to discuss important matters of faith three times a year, by Canon Peter Adams, deputy lay chair of Luton Deanery. Both the question and answer were submitted for Saturday’s summit, where follow-up questions can be asked.

The Rt Revd Dr Alan said: “I want to fully acknowledge that some within the diocese and beyond may be feeling conflicted, upset, concerned or angry by what you have read about the investigation into Mike Pilavachi.

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“I also acknowledge that these feelings may be exacerbated since we are limited in our ability to respond to ongoing reporting in traditional and social media due to the constraints of the investigation. Where possible, updates are provided in conjunction with the NST.

“At the same time, I must assure you of our commitment to support anyone affected by this situation, particularly those who are coming forward with information. We are equally committed to the principle that the investigation must be fair to all parties.”

‘Constrained’ by church Safeguarding and Clergy Discipline Measure

He added that as a Diocesan bishop he is “constrained” by the church rule of the Safeguarding and Clergy Discipline Measure 2016.

Under this measure all authorised clergy, bishops, archdeacons, licensed readers and lay workers, churchwardens and parochial church councillors must have “due regard” to safeguarding guidance issued by the House of Bishops. “Failure by clergy to comply with the duty imposed by the 2016 Measure may result in disciplinary action,” he added.

According to guidance issued by the House of Bishops, it is only for the Church’s Core Group which handles a safeguarding case to make the recommendation that it be handled by an independent inquiry.

“If I was to call for an independent enquiry at this stage and without such a recommendation, I would be outside of House of Bishops’ Guidance and would risk prejudicing the outcome of the current investigation,” the bishop added.

“In particular, I am conscious that issuing calls now about the shape of the next stage of any response might cause confusion as to the processes currently underway and the support available now.”

The Canon had asked the bishop to work with the church to establish an independent inquiry regarding “this very sad situation so as to ensure justice for all impacted, and a full understanding of what has gone wrong”.

The question also comes amid calls from members of General Synod, the Church of England’s law-making body which will meet again next month, for a private members motion calling for allegations of abuse surrounding Rev Canon Pilavachi to be investigated by an independent King’s Counsel.

In response to the bishop’s comments, one of Pilavachi’s victims who first spoke out regarding the claims of abuse, said: “The effectiveness and implementation of any safeguarding and disciplinary measure requires the commitment and diligence of individuals involved and the continuous evaluation and improvement of policies and procedures.

“This clearly hasn’t happened. The Church of England has faced criticism and scrutiny over its handling of cases involving allegations of abuse and misconduct, even since the 2016 measure. So I have no reason to place any faith in this process.”

‘Self-policing by the church has clearly failed’

Richard Scorer, an abuse lawyer at Slater and Gordon who is acting for some of the Soul Survivor complainants, said: “Clearly there is some support within the diocese for a fully independent investigation and as Camon Adams rightly highlights, nobody can have confidence in an internal Church of England investigation because this would be the church marking its own homework yet again.

“Self-policing by the church has clearly failed and the allegations relating to Soul Survivor over a long period are themselves evidence of this. I call on the Church of England to accept the clear need for a fully independent investigation, and to take steps right away to put it in hand so that confidence can be restored. An Attempt to resist an independent investigation looks to most people like a cover up.”

A spokesman for the Diocese of St Albans said: “The Diocese of St Albans is committed to supporting anyone affected by the investigation into the Revd Canon Mike Pilavachi. We strongly encourage anyone with information to contact the diocesan or national safeguarding teams, or to speak to the Safe Spaces helpline.

“In response to a formal question asked by a member of St Albans Diocesan Synod, Bishop Alan explained how under UK Law and the House of Bishops safeguarding guidance he cannot at present support calls for an independent enquiry into the investigation until it has been completed.”

A Church of England spokesperson said: “The investigation is being conducted jointly by the diocese of St Albans and NST according to House of Bishops Guidance.

“We cannot comment on an ongoing investigation, to be fair to all parties and support is being offered to all involved. Anyone who comes forward to the investigation will be treated with the utmost sensitivity.”

KeepHavingFun · 17/06/2023 14:22

@takingcareofme2023 Thank you x

FluffyCat17 · 17/06/2023 15:24

@takingcareofme2023 yes thank you for this, it was frustrating not to be able to read the full text when I saw this on Twitter.

I was surprised by the last part where it states the bishop couldn’t call for an indep inquiry due to UK law. I assume this is because it’s the CofE and tangled up in some old legislation?

Let’s hope the continued spotlight on this makes them all think again about how this should be dealt with.

Toddlerteaplease · 17/06/2023 17:18

@FluffyCat17 Surely that's not right. An RC bishop has just completed an official inquiry into safeguarding issues in another diocese. Alongside the safeguarding agencies and the police.

FluffyCat17 · 17/06/2023 22:21

Have we heard whether the police are involved in any of this?

ErrolTheDragon · 17/06/2023 22:48

FluffyCat17 · 17/06/2023 15:24

@takingcareofme2023 yes thank you for this, it was frustrating not to be able to read the full text when I saw this on Twitter.

I was surprised by the last part where it states the bishop couldn’t call for an indep inquiry due to UK law. I assume this is because it’s the CofE and tangled up in some old legislation?

Let’s hope the continued spotlight on this makes them all think again about how this should be dealt with.

Earlier in the piece it didn't sound like he actually couldn't but that he'd be disciplined by the church authorities if he did. Which seems a bit weaselly... shouldn't he try to do what's right and take the consequences?

MrsJamin · 17/06/2023 22:59

The police aren't involved, they've said that what was alleged wasn't illegal.