Have you or your kids been to Soul Survivor?

[Coffeeandcards]

You might want to read this if so:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-charity-watchdog/

Also clergy wife is paid 26-30k for part time supporting work. That’s no bad no? It’s all online if you want to check.

No no it really isn't like a senior teacher at all. How much would rent/mortgage be on a 4+ bedroom large house in London and start from there.

Of course they're not "in it for the money" but it also isn't poverty in the way they like to think. There's one of those things where if all the clergy around you tell you clergy are on a low income you kind of believe them and feel "entitled" to 4 bed house/ bursarys/free holidays etc.

I suspect there's a lot of factors in this including increased house prices and bills in general . But its definitely above average, and often one of the nicer houses in the area.

So a quick look on right move has 4 bed detached properties starting at 2k moving closer to 3k a month in London. And that's just looking at "lowest price". So that's 30k (which would cost over 40k in pre tax income) before we've even started looking at bills and income...

It's another world truly.

But yes we are detracting from the main thread!

I am wondering if you know the same family as me. Three holidays a year using other people’s holiday homes, kids in private school and a house worth 3m plus in London. From the original stable of Mike’s favourites? Also on survivor records? They are absolute snobs and hypocrites.

No not the private school but moving in those circles I know a few vicars with big houses...

@BadSkiingMum

A lot of focus on young men in the video - is the young man on stage at 0:45 from the Soul Survivor Watford team?

He certainly is. His name is Andy Croft, Mike Pilavachi's protege and senior pastor at Soul Survivor.

I've been to Soul Survivor events in the past, and though no longer a "believer", it has been very successful at creating a vibrant and welcoming community that is simultaneously both middle-class whilst also counter-cultural - both wholesome and yet rebellious - and has been very appealing to 10,000s of young people over the years....

Although I never really knew Mike, I have known many of the people who have been at the core of Soul Survivor -some very well - and I can say they are good, genuine people who sincerely believe they are trying to make the world a better place... and i say this with no axe to grind not having distanced myself from the church and Christian faith in recent years.

I’m in this world and know ex gappers and staff members at SS, they definitely did not know and were totally shocked by the allegations.

I can confirm this, knowing people very close to Mike.

That doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I flip flop between thinking it genuinely is amazing to have so many teenagers in one place doing wholesome things rather than drugs/etc and being mostly nice to each other and leaving invigorated and happy. They were HUGE festivals and had all the associated skatebosrding/activities and really was a very safe place to go away for a week with friends. And my memories of it are of a positive thing.

But then I look back having left the church at the music/lights/atmosphere and indoctrination that went along with it and feel uncomfortable. Similarly with Stoneleigh etc etc.

MP aside its a strange one to straddle.

@LotsOfBalloons It depends what you mean by "safe". It's safe in the sense that there's no drugs, no booze, no sex* and the kids are all well-behaved and nice to each other, with common goals and lots in common.

If you look at what can actually go on under the banner of hardcase charismatic evangelicalism, though, potentially you're messing up a lot of people. My involvement with stuff like this absolutely ruined bits of my mental wellbeing and ability to make sensible decisions, and I'll be paying the price for the rest of my life.

Greenbelt is also a safe festival, but without the extremity. There's also millions of teenagers who go to regular music festivals etc and come back completely unharmed.

• there's almost certainly some sex, with an absolutely catastrophically messed up dollop of guilt and weirdness thrown in.

It’s not the idea of a festival or teenagers getting together that I have a problem with

It’s the way it operates. A charismatic leadership team who are all knowing and powerful. Operating on the peripheries of the mainstream church and its oversight. The compulsory worship (everything is shut during this time). Emotional manipulation. Laying on of hands and intense prayer and ‘counselling’ sessions with unqualified young people barely older than the attendees. The obsession with sex and sexuality. Praying the gay away.

It all leaves young people very vulnerable

Completely agree. This is not a "festival", it's a very carefully orchestrated event designed to take young people away from their normal environment in order to manipulate them into committing to a very, very controlling and demanding form of faith.

It all looks and feels nice when you're getting all emotional in the big top, but it's not so good when you get back home and find you're parting with huge amounts of money, having massive demands made on your time, being made to feel extreme guilt about normal human emotions and behaviour, and all the rest of the baggage that comes with this stuff. Trust me, it's bad. Really bad.

Quite apart from what Mike Pilavachi has been doing, events like Soul Survivor are demonstrably dangerous, and I'm glad it's closed down, for whatever reason.

@Natsku

Yeah but then you retire with no house and very late in life to start paying a mortgage, if you'd even get approved for one as you're not working any more.

Not usually... They'd purchase a property and pay the mortgage from tenants rent monies, using their stipend as and when needed. Most are already on the housing ladder before they become vicars so they're not starting from scratch.

Wasn't the case for my dad as a Baptist minister (later prison chaplain), he's retiring this year at 70 with nowhere to live. Become a minister straight after Bible college, no chance to get on the housing ladder then.

The C of E have retirement schemes, although as above lots of people purchase a property early on in order to have something for retirement. It can be a pretty good investment/deal.

I've googled and found that Baptists do also have a scheme for retired clergy it could be worth looking at.
https://rbmho.org/new-applicants/

Most denominations make provision which you don't get in a normal job. Normal jobsif you've rented all your life you use housing benefit and pensions. Other retired people dont have housing options like minister usually do.

Or you can invest in property which is the same if you're a minister.

And yes Primative I agree with all you've said- I think it's why the MP debacle has "brought up" all these issues for me as I have conflicting beliefs in my head about that time in my youth.

Wow that baptist one isn't bad - they buy a house of your choosing and then you pay £200 a month "rent" or 10% of your retirement income. Sounds fab.

The scheme is still going? I'm sure a few years ago my parents were under the impression it folded and it scuppered their retirement plans.

Yup started in 1972 and has a 2023 policy on there. I was pretty sure there were things in place for ministers of all main denominations if they did retire without provision (friends going into vicar factory though were encouraged to keep their house/let it out.) It looks pretty good too! Really sorry for your parents if they missed out though, I hope soemthing else came up as that is pretty rubbish after a lifetime of living in manses!

It’s generous I think https://www.london.anglican.org/kb/clergy-terms-of-service-information/

re settling grants, removal and packing paid for, cleaner, gardener, utilities. All maintenance paid for. A lot of spouses are paid too the one I am thinking of gets a hefty salary for part time preaching (FTE 60k and 10% pay rise since last year).
It’s all publicly available in the online accounts.

The stipend (plus partner salary) is excluding housing and most bills. It’s not a bad set up.

Yes it really is. Given that a decent sized house is on top it really is equivalent to a pretty good wage in total.

I think too some vicars (sometimes only a few years in even) start to "forget" that in normal life everything isn't taken care of, and exactly how much benefits they get. It's really pretty good. Far more than a "senior teacher" suggested above!!

@Sameynamey were the Gumbals involved in this as well?